PM Lawrence Wong’s Interview With CCTV-13 for Leaders' Talk (Jun 2025)

Esther Zou Yun, Leader's Talk Host, CCTV: Mr Prime Minister, good morning to you, and thank you for joining us on Leaders Talk. First, congratulations on leading People's Action Party to victory in the recent General Election. It has been just over a year since you assumed office as the Prime Minister of Singapore, and nearly a month since your Cabinet was sworn in. So how has this transition into the role been for you and the responsibilities that come with leading a nation?
[翻译:总理先生早上好！感谢您接受《高端访谈》的专访。首先要祝贺您带领人民行动党在最近的大选中获胜。您就任新加坡总理一职已逾一年，新一届内阁宣誓就职也快一个月了。您对这段角色转换感受如何？对于肩负领导一个国家的责任又有怎样的体会？]

Prime Minister Lawrence Wong: It is a big job with significant responsibilities. There is nothing that really prepares you for this. And even for someone like me. I have been in government for a long time – I have been in the Civil Service for nearly 15 years, in politics for about 14 years, so nearly 30 years of experience. Still, coming into a job like this, there is still a lot to learn and adapt and adjust to, but fortunately, I have a strong team of ministers, MPs – Members of Parliament – supporting me, and so it has been a smooth transition, both in the government and in the leadership of the People's Action Party. And as you said, recently I led the Party into our General Elections, and I am very grateful that Singaporeans gave me a clear mandate to lead for another term.
[翻译: 这是一项责任重大的工作，做再多的准备都不够。即便像我这样在政府任职多年，也是如此。我曾在公共服务部门工作近15年，从政约14年，积累了近30年的经验。 但上任之后仍然有很多需要学习、适应和调整的地方。好在有强有力的部长团队和国会议员们的支持，因此无论是政府运作还是人民行动党的党内领导工作，过渡都相当顺利。就像你刚刚提到的，这次我带领人民行动党参加大选，很感谢新加坡民众再次选择我们执政下一个任期。]

Ms Zou: Prime Minister Wong, you have been to China a couple of times before, but you are going to embark your very first official trip to China as the Prime Minister of Singapore next week. So what different expectations do you have for this trip, and what will be the key priorities guiding your agenda?
[翻译: 黄总理，此前您曾多次到访中国。虽然您曾去过中国很多次，但下周将是您首次以新加坡总理的身份正式访华。对于这次访华，您有怎样不同的期待？您此行将重点关注哪些议题？]

PM Wong: Well, I made it a point to visit China almost every year since entering politics, because it is useful to visit regularly, to interact, exchange notes with my counterparts, and to get a sense of how China is moving and transforming. I have always had good visits; I have always had good exchanges and meetings with my counterparts. As you say, this time will be a different occasion. It is more special this time because it is my first visit in my capacity as Prime Minister. I would look forward to achieving several objectives. First, to just establish closer ties with Chinese leaders, especially with President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Qiang, both of whom I have met before. Second, to reaffirm our shared commitment to enhancing our bilateral cooperation, especially as we mark the 35th anniversary of diplomatic ties this year. And then, of course, thirdly, to discuss the wider regional and global developments that we are all confronting during this challenging period and to see how we can continue working together to strengthen multilateralism and the rules-based global order.
[翻译: 自踏入政坛以来，我几乎每年都会特意访问中国。因为定期访问中国非常必要，既能和中方同仁们交流互动、交换意见，也能切身感受中国的发展与变化。之前的访问都卓有成效，和中方同仁的交流和会晤也总是富有成果。正如你所说，这次访问和以往不同，这次访问更特别，因为我将第一次以总理身份出访（中国）。这次访问我希望达成以下目标：首先，我要和习近平主席、李强总理等中方领导人建立更紧密的联系；其次，要重申我们对深化双边合作的共同承诺，特别是在两国建交35周年之际；第三就是要讨论如何实现更广泛的区域合作和全球发展，尤其在当前这个充满挑战的时期，就如何继续携手加强多边主义、维护基于规则的国际秩序交换意见。]

Ms Zou: You met with Chinese President Xi Jinping last November on the sidelines of APEC Economic Leaders’ Meeting. So what is your impression, and also some major takeaways from your meeting with President Xi, and as you just mentioned, you will be scheduled to meet President Xi again. What are some of the major topics that you hope to touch upon during this meeting?
[翻译: 去年11月，您与习近平主席在亚太经合组织领导人非正式会议期间进行了会见。这次会见给您留下了什么印象？取得了哪些重要共识？您提到您很快就会和习主席再次会面，您期待与习主席重点讨论哪些议题？这次会见给您留下了什么印象？取得了哪些重要共识？您提到您很快就会和习主席再次会面，您期待与习主席重点讨论哪些议题？]

PM Wong: We had a short but productive meeting at the sidelines of APEC last year. These multilateral platforms are not really very conducive for bilateral meetings, because schedules are so tight, everyone is running around. So it was a short meeting with President Xi — my first time, in fact, as Prime Minister, at that time. Yes, that is right, but because we have met before in a different capacity. I was a minister then, as part of a delegation; but at that meeting, it was my first time meeting him as Prime Minister. A short meeting, but very productive. We discussed our bilateral cooperation; we discussed cooperation in regional platforms like APEC, and how we can take this forward. And I said to President Xi at that time that I would be visiting China next year – that was in 2024, I said next year in 2025 when we mark the 35th anniversary of diplomatic ties. So I am doing so right after the elections, at the soonest possible opportunity to visit China now, and I hope to be able to meet him again and continue our conversations on how we can further enhance our bilateral cooperation and also cooperate, as I said, across other regional platforms.
[翻译: 去年亚太经合组织领导人非正式会议期间，我与习主席进行了一场简短但富有成效的会晤。那也是我第一次以总理身份与他会面。我们讨论了两国的双边合作，探讨了在亚太经合组织等区域性平台的协作以及如何深化合作。我当时就对习主席说，我打算明年访问中国。我们会面的时候还是2024年，我说我将在2025年——也就是新中建交35周年之际访华。因此这次选举结束后，我第一时间就确定了访华行程，我期待能够与习主席再次会面。]

Ms Zou: And just now you mentioned that your visit this time coincides with the 35th anniversary of diplomatic relations between our two nations. So how do you interpret this bilateral tie, which was upgraded in 2023, now termed as an “All-Round High-Quality Future-Oriented partnership”, and what is your vision towards the future trajectory of it?
[翻译: 您刚才提到，此次访问正值中国与新加坡建交35周年。2023年，中新关系提升为全方位高质量的前瞻性伙伴关系。您会如何评价这一双边关系？对于两国关系发展的未来前景，您又有怎样的展望？]

PM Wong: China and Singapore have very close and steadfast partnership. It is a partnership that is built on mutual trust, respect and understanding. It started with our founding Prime Minister Mr Lee Kuan Yew, and Mr Deng Xiaoping. And successive Prime Ministers of Singapore since then, have built on that strong foundation to establish close rapport and trust with their Chinese counterparts. So I hope to do the same in my visit with Chinese leaders, especially with President Xi and Premier Li, and I think the close ties at the leadership level sets the tone for the overall relationship. We have an apex body called the JCBC – the Joint Council for Bilateral Cooperation – that oversees the many multifaceted and comprehensive projects we have with one another. I used to co-chair – I used to be the Singapore co-chair of the JCBC with Vice Premier Ding Xuexiang. I have passed on my role to my Deputy Prime Minister now, Gan Kim Yong. So he and Vice Premier Ding have continued to meet. In fact, the JCBC meets every year. Each time they meet, the agenda keeps growing, because there are so many things to discuss. But it is not just the number of projects, because in the spirit of our partnership, we are pursuing projects that are all-round or comprehensive, that are high in quality, and are also future-oriented. And so these are the guideposts that will shape our cooperation in the future. And with the close partnership we have, I am optimistic that the future of our cooperation is bright, and there are many more things we can do together.
[翻译: 中国与新加坡之间保持着非常紧密且稳固的伙伴关系，这种伙伴关系以互信、尊重和理解为基石。它始于新加坡建国总理李光耀先生与中国领导人邓小平先生，此后的历任新加坡总理都在这一坚实基础上，与中国领导人建立了密切的友好关系和互信。因此，此次访问我也期待能延续这一传统，与中方领导人深入交流，尤其是与习近平主席和李强总理会面。在我看来，领导层之间的紧密互动为两国整体关系奠定了基调。新中两国之间设有一个最高层级的机制——新中双边合作联合委员会，统筹两国在多个领域的综合性合作项目。我曾担任该委员会的新方联合主席。事实上，该委员会每年都会召开会议。 这个会议每年的议程都在不断扩展，因为有太多议题需要探讨。我们的合作并不限于项目数量，而是秉持两国伙伴精神，推进全方位、高质量、前瞻性的合作项目。这些正是引领我们未来合作的标杆。鉴于如此紧密的伙伴关系，我对双方的合作前景充满信心，相信可以开拓更多合作的空间。]

Ms Zou: As you have just raised that you have been to China many times, to cities I think including Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin etc. So what are some of the major changes and transformations you have witnessed through all those years in terms of China's development and modernisation that you think are inspirational to you in governing a nation?
[翻译: 您刚才提到曾多次到访过中国，包括北京、上海、天津等城市……还有成都。在这些年里，您所看到的中国的哪些发展和现代化进程对您治理新加坡有所启发？]

PM Wong: The transformation and success of China, I feel, is nothing short of an economic miracle. Because in the last 20 or so years, when I have been visiting China regularly, even as a civil servant and then later as a politician, across so many different Chinese cities, not just Beijing and Shanghai, but even in a city like Chengdu and other cities, you can see transformation happening. You can see the determination and the drive of the Chinese people to move forward, and you can see lives getting better and improving. So it is a remarkable change, and I continue to wish China every success in its ongoing transformation and modernisation efforts.
[翻译: 我认为，中国的转型和成就堪称经济奇迹。过去20余年间，我经常去中国，从当公务员时就开始，后来从政后也经常去。足迹不仅限于北京、上海，也包括成都等众多城市，变化可谓是日新月异。你能真切感受到中国人民砥砺前行的决心与干劲，能看到中国人民的日子越过越好。这真的是非凡的变化！我衷心祝愿中国在变革和现代化建设上不断取得成功。]

Ms Zou: And you recently made a remark that “never bet on the decline of China”. So what are the key factors that underpin your confidence, and has China's recent economic performance especially amid the global headwinds reinforced your belief in its long-term resilience and also potential?
[翻译: 您不久前发表过一个评论—“永远不要看衰中国”。请问哪些因素强化了您的信心？尤其在当前全球经济下行的情况下，中国经济的表现是否印证了您对其长期韧性和潜力的判断？]

PM Wong: Well, first of all, it is what I have just described. It is the track record of success, remarkable success. Of course, you can say past performance does not predict future performance, but still, it is a very impressive track record which gives one confidence. But a second factor is that I have interacted so many times with Chinese leaders at all levels – the mayors, the party secretaries, the governors, and of course, the leaders at the centre in Beijing. And I have always been impressed by the high level of competence, by their deep mastery of issues. They understand the challenges. They are focused on resolving the challenges and problems that China faces. But it is more than just competence and mastery; it is also a willingness to listen and to be open-minded about finding better solutions. Because governments never get everything right. It is impossible. Governments will make mistakes from time to time. What distinguishes a high-quality system is the ability to reflect, learn, and keep on improving and doing better. And I see that in the Chinese system. But the biggest reason, the most important reason why I have confidence in China is because of the people of China. It is because of their tremendous ingenuity and resourcefulness, the deep drive to succeed, to strive and work hard, and that gives me confidence that China will continue to have a good future ahead.
[翻译: 首先，正如我刚才提到的，中国这些年取得了非凡的成就。当然有人会说过去的成绩不能预示未来的表现，但这么亮眼的发展成就确实让人充满信心。其次，我在不同场合接触过中国各级官员，从市长、书记、省长到中央领导，他们展现出的高超执政能力和对问题的深刻把握令我印象深刻。他们很清楚所面临的挑战，专注于破解难题。除了能力，更为可贵的是，他们始终愿意听取各方意见，秉持开放态度，不断寻求更优方案。世界上没有哪个政府能做到尽善尽美，出错在所难免。优秀治理体系的关键在于要具备反思、学习并持续改进的能力。我在中国体制中看到了这种特质。不过，我对中国有信心，最重要的原因还是中国人民。中国人民有着惊人的创造力和智慧，他们身上那种自强不息、拼搏奋进的深层动力，让我坚信中国一定会发展得越来越好。]

Ms Zou: Thank you for the good wishes. And you will be attending the Annual Meeting of the New Champions, which will take place in Tianjin this year, also known as Summer Davos. So what will be the key messages that you hope to deliver there, especially with this global context, where the world is going through choppy waters filled with different challenges?
[翻译: 感谢您的祝福！您即将出席在天津举行的新领军者年会，即夏季达沃斯论坛。在当前全球形势复杂多变、挑战层出不穷的背景下，您希望在此次会议上传递哪些核心信息？]

PM Wong: We are in the midst of a profound global change. So my message at Tianjin will be the importance of upholding a rules-based multilateral order, because without rules, without longstanding norms of cooperation, countries everywhere will be worse off. Small countries like Singapore of course are very concerned, because we have limited bargaining power, and we risk being sidelined and squeezed by the bigger powers. But I think big countries will be impacted too, because if we end up in a world that is more fragmented, where there is deep suspicions and mistrust of one another, this will be a world with great uncertainty and volatility, and you will have slower growth and higher inflation in the global economy, which means all countries will suffer, and our people at the end of the day will be the ones facing the impact. So we have to do something about this. Of course, multilateralism today is not perfect. There are things that can be improved, but our response should not be to abandon the multilateral system. Our response should be to reform, change, improve and make the system work better for the benefit of all countries.
[翻译: 我们正身处一场深刻的全球变革之中。因此我此次在天津想强调的是：维护基于规则的多边秩序至关重要。因为一旦规则缺失，背离长期以来形成的合作准则，世界各国都将深受其害。像新加坡这样的小国对此尤为关注，毕竟我们自身的谈判筹码有限，面临被大国边缘化与挤压的风险。大国也同样会受到影响。倘若世界变得愈发分裂，各国彼此猜忌、互信荡然无存，全球将陷入高度不确定性与动荡之中。这将导致全球经济增长乏力、通胀加剧，所有国家都将遭受损失，而最终承受后果的是我们的民众。因此，我们必须付诸行动。当然，目前的多边体制还不够完善，仍有改进空间。但我们的选择不应该是抛弃多边主义，而应积极推动其改革、调整与改善，使其更好地造福所有国家。]

Ms Zou: Given the challenges you just touched upon – the tensions in trade, anti-globalisation trend, the geopolitical risks are some of the most pressing issues concerning the world, what is your top concern for Singapore from your perspective?
[翻译: 我们刚才提到了一系列挑战，比如贸易紧张局势、逆全球化趋势、地缘政治风险，以及世界面临的一些最为紧迫的问题等。从您的角度看，新加坡面临的最大担忧是什么？]

PM Wong: We know that from Singapore's perspective, we are small, we are an open economy, we rely heavily on trade. So this new external environment will make it less hospitable for us to continue flourishing. So we have to find ways to navigate the external environment carefully. But I think despite the changes that we see around us, trade will still continue. Countries do want to be more self-sufficient in this new environment, but it is not possible for any single country to do everything themselves. They still have to trade with one another; they still have to do business with one another. But the trade flows, the supply chains, will be reconfigured. It will be a different supply chain going forward. So what Singapore will strive to do is to be competitive, relevant, to add value, and to always remain a key node in these changing trade and investment flows.
[翻译: 从新加坡的视角来看，我们深知自己作为体量小、开放的经济体，高度依赖国际贸易，因此，当前新的外部环境确实加大了我们实现持续繁荣的难度。为此，我们必须寻求应对之策，审慎地应对外部环境的变化。但我认为，尽管局势变化，但贸易往来仍将持续。诚然，当下的新形势下，各国都期望提升自给自足的能力，但事实上，没有任何一个国家能够完全仅凭自身满足所有需求。]

Ms Zou: But talking about trade, you recently described the tariffs imposed by Trump administration as a seismic change in the global order, suggesting the era of free trade is over. Given what you have just mentioned, Singapore's heavy reliance on global trade, what are the specific plans, the priorities for your government to navigate through the shifts and also the pressure in the global trade system?
[翻译: 谈及贸易问题，您近期表态称，美国政府实施的关税政策对全球秩序带来巨大冲击，并表示自由贸易时代已经结束。鉴于您提到新加坡高度依赖全球贸易，那么面对全球贸易体系的巨变与压力，新加坡政府有哪些具体计划来应对？]

PM Wong: As I mentioned just now, the era of free trade, or the era that we are familiar with, may be over, but trade will still continue – different configurations, different supply chains. We will try to be competitive, we will try to stay relevant. But at the same time, we will work with like-minded countries to uphold free trade and to uphold a rules-based trading system. We are doing this with our neighbours in ASEAN. So within ASEAN, we are accelerating our integration, bringing down trade and non-trade barriers so that we can make ASEAN a more integrated community, more competitive, more attractive for investors. We are doing this with partners in Asia, like China, India, Japan, South Korea for example, working closely with all the key players in Asia. But we are also pursuing this with countries outside of Asia, like the EU, Latin America, Africa for example. And some of these are countries we are not so familiar with, but we think we should now make an extra effort to establish closer links with them. We are also strengthening our cooperation in regional platforms like RCEP and CPTPP, and we are finding ways to establish new linkages across different platforms. For example, between ASEAN and other groupings, we are discussing potential links with the GCC, ASEAN-GCC or ASEAN-EU. These are possibilities we will explore, or for that matter, exploring a stronger partnership between the CPTPP and the EU. So these are all different areas we are exploring. I believe in every crisis, there will always be opportunities, and so we are finding ways to seize new opportunities for ourselves and for other countries.
[翻译: 正如我刚才讲的，自由贸易时代或者说我们所熟悉的那个时代或许已经终结，但贸易仍将继续。面对不同的产业结构和供应链，我们将竭力保持竞争力，确保自身不可替代。与此同时，我们正在与志同道合的国家一起，携手维护自由贸易，捍卫以规则为基础的贸易体系。我们正与亚细安邻国合作。在亚细安内部，我们正在加速推进区域一体化进程，消除贸易与非贸易壁垒，旨在将亚细安打造成更具凝聚力、竞争力和投资吸引力的区域合作网络。我们也正在与亚洲伙伴，如中国、印度、日本、韩国等亚洲主要国家保持密切合作。同时，我们也与亚洲以外的国家深化合作，例如欧盟、拉美和非洲等地区。尽管其中部分国家我们尚不熟悉，但当下更应加倍努力与之建立更紧密的联系。我们也在加强区域平台合作，如《区域全面经济伙伴关系协定》和《全面与进步跨太平洋伙伴关系协定》等，并积极探索不同机制之间的联动新方式，例如亚细安与其他区域组织之间的联动。这些都是我们当前着力探索的领域。我始终坚信，每次危机中都蕴藏着机遇。因此，我们正在为新加坡和其他国家探寻把握新的发展契机。]

Ms Zou: Just like the Chinese phrase 危机. Opportunities always come.
[翻译: 就像中文“危机”这个词一样，“危”与“机”始终相伴而生。]

PM Wong: Of course. We may speak English, but we are very Asian in our thinking.
[翻译: 我们虽然讲英语，但思维方式很亚洲。]

Ms Zou: Speaking of regional and global cooperation, China and ASEAN about a month ago have announced the conclusion of negotiations on version 3.0 FTA and with the aim to be signed by year end. So how do you interpret the significance of this upgraded protocol, especially in this global context of rising protectionism and uncertainties?
[翻译: 说到区域与全球合作，上个月中国和亚细安刚刚全面完成自贸区3.0版谈判，并计划在年底前签署。在当前保护主义抬头、全球局势不确定的背景下，您认为这次自贸协议升级有什么特别意义？]

PM Wong: It is a very important upgrade, and Singapore fully supports it. It is in line with the spirit of what I said just now, that amidst the pressures of protectionism and trade barriers, Singapore will want to work closely with ASEAN and other like-minded countries to continue to uphold free trade and a rules-based trading system. So in that spirit, we fully support the upgrade to the China-ASEAN FTA. We hope this can be signed at the coming ASEAN-China summit in October, and the new upgrade will come into force soon after that.
[翻译: 这次升级至关重要，新加坡全力支持。这正体现了我们刚才谈到的精神——在保护主义和贸易壁垒的压力下，新加坡愿与亚细安以及其他志同道合的国家一起，共同捍卫自由贸易和基于规则的贸易体系。本着这一精神，我们全力支持中国—亚细安自贸区升级协议，期待能在10月举行的中国-亚细安领导人会议上顺利签署，并希望该升级版协议尽快生效实施。]

Ms Zou: Over the years, China and Singapore have established three major government-to-government projects in Suzhou, Tianjin and Chongqing, and also state-level bilateral cooperation project, the Guangzhou Knowledge City. So Mr Prime Minister, do you envision, for instance, introducing a new project during your term, or what are some new areas of cooperation do you expect, apart from these existing initiatives?
[翻译: 多年来，中新两国分别在苏州、天津和重庆建立三个政府间合作项目，以及广州知识城这个国家级双边合作项目。总理先生，您在任期内有没有计划启动新的合作项目？除现有项目外，您还期待哪些新的合作领域？]

PM Wong: I would first clarify that these existing initiatives are not simply projects that are completed, and then we have turned the page, and then we move on to something new. They are work-in-progress. In fact, they are platforms – the government-to-government initiatives that we have are platforms for wider cooperation. So to illustrate, the Suzhou Industrial Park, which was our first government-to-government cooperation project, very successful, and recently we marked 30th anniversary of the Suzhou Industrial Park, and now we are looking at a new frontier for cooperation where the cooperation may be wider, not just between the government entities, but with a wider ecosystem of players. And we may even explore cooperation in third countries outside of China. Or take another example of Tianjin Eco City. It started as a barren wasteland, and the vision was to transform this place into a place for eco living, green living. We have achieved that vision, and recently we marked the 15th anniversary of the Tianjin Eco City, and now we are saying, let us look ahead, have a new chapter and think about how the Tianjin project can be a model for high-quality green development and sustainable growth for China. So in each of these projects, we are constantly finding new ways to cooperate. At the same time, beyond these existing platforms, we are always open to new ideas, and we are continuing to discuss new possibilities for cooperation, including in areas like low carbon, green energy, digital economy and biomedical sciences. So the point is, the cooperation between our two countries, because of the close partnership, is never static. It never stands still. We are always upgrading, improving, trying to find new opportunities to cooperate and to be responsive to the needs of our times. That is the spirit of our cooperation. That is why I am so confident that we can continue to do more together.
[翻译: 这些项目都处在动态深化中。实际上，我们的政府间合作项目本身就是拓展合作的平台。比如我们的第一个政府间合作项目苏州工业园，该项目取得了巨大成功，不久前刚庆祝成立30周年。如今，我们正探索新的合作前沿，合作范围将更加广阔，不仅限于政府机构之间，还将涵盖更广泛的市场主体。再比如中新天津生态城，当年就是一片荒地。我们当时的愿景是把这片土地打造成生态宜居的绿色家园，现在这一愿景已经实现。中新天津生态城近期也迎来15岁生日。如今，展望未来，我们正在谋划新的篇章，思考如何将它打造成为中国高质量绿色发展与可持续增长的样板。因此，在推进每个项目的同时，我们始终在探索新的合作路径。我们始终秉持开放的态度，在低碳、绿色能源、数字经济、生物医学等领域探讨新的合作可能性。关键在于，新中两国基于紧密伙伴关系的合作从来不是静止的，也绝不会停滞不前，而是在不断升级改善，寻找新的合作机遇，并与时俱进——这正是新中两国合作的精髓所在，也是我对未来深化合作充满信心的原因。]

Ms Zou: In terms of digital economy cooperation, Singapore has expressed its support for China's accession to DEPA – Digital Economy Partnership Agreement – which was a tripartite partnership established by Singapore, Chile and New Zealand. And China, also last year, has stated that it is going to make even greater efforts to accelerate the negotiations. So at a current stage, Mr Prime Minister, what is your vision towards the accession of China towards DEPA?

PM Wong: We fully support China's application to join DEPA. There are requirements; there are standards to meet. There is also a consensus process amongst all existing members. So we will do our part to support this, but we hope China will meet the requirements, and we look forward to being able to welcome China as part of DEPA.

Ms Zou: The world is now going through so many major challenges. The challenges, many say, is unseen in a century. So what is your reading, your evaluation of the current global scene in terms of other geopolitical risks, all those uncertainties that we are faced with?
[翻译: 世界正在经历诸多重大挑战，面临百年未有之大变局。您如何解读和评估当下我们面临的地缘政治风险和不确定性？]

PM Wong: We are in the midst of a very messy and unpredictable transition. Because if you look back in history, after the end of World War II, the Americans were victorious; and after the end of the Cold War, America was the sole superpower. So America helped to shape and underwrite the global order we have today, the multilateral system of rules and norms that we have today. It is a system that has benefited countries everywhere. We have benefited in Singapore from this – we flourish and thrived. China has benefited immensely from this American-led order. But in recent years, Americans themselves feel that they are paying too high a price to uphold this order. They are paying too high a price and they are not enjoying the commensurate benefits. So America wants to pull back. But there is no country in the world today that can replace the US, no one. So what is our alternative? I think frankly, at this stage, no one knows the answer. We are in a state of flux, and it will take time before we find a new equilibrium. I think the new order will be shaped eventually by not just a single superpower, but by all countries, large and small, by the actions and choices of all countries big and small. And this will take time. In the meantime, we are in this period of transition – very unpredictable, very chaotic and potentially very dangerous as well. Because during this period, without clear global leadership and coordination, there are many things that can go wrong in this world. So I think what is important for all of us, countries everywhere, is to recognise the dangers that we are in. For all of us to do our part to manage geopolitical tensions and rivalry carefully in order to minimise the risk of conflict and war. For us to find ways to get countries to still work together and find win-win cooperation, especially in areas of shared interest. And then step by step, we can all work together to lay the groundwork for a new and more stable global order that may emerge in the years ahead. It will take time, but we should all do our part to shape this new global order.
[翻译: 我们正处于一个非常混乱且不可预测的转型期。世界正处于不断变化之中，新均衡的形成尚需时日。在我看来，未来的国际秩序不会由一个超级大国塑造，而是由所有国家共同塑造，无论国家大小。各国都会通过行动和选择参与其中。这一进程需要时间。当前我们正处于这个充满变数的转型期，这一时期局势难测、乱象丛生且危机四伏。由于缺乏明确的全球领导协调机制，世界很可能在这一阶段频生事端。因此我认为，世界各国亟需认清我们共同面临的危险，审慎地管控地缘政治紧张局势和对抗，最大限度降低冲突和战争风险，同时更应该寻求共赢之道，尤其在共同利益领域实现合作共赢。如此循序渐进，我们就可以为未来可能产生的、更加稳定的全球新秩序奠定基础。这需要时间，各国都应该贡献自己的力量。]

Ms Zou: In this time of transition, for instance as you mentioned, you believe that the United States is thinking they are being overly charged throughout the years. But imposing heavy tariffs on so many different countries around the world might not be the proper solution, right?
[翻译: 但是在这个转型期，对全球众多国家加征高额关税，恐怕也不是一个合适的解决办法，对吗？]

PM Wong: We do not believe it is, but as I said, the administration reflects a growing sentiment amongst the American people that they are paying too high a price to be the world's policeman, to underwrite the global system, and they have not benefited. In fact, we believe America has benefited. We believe that if you look around the world at the system that America has put in place, it has benefited all countries, including the US. If America were to take an enlightened self-interest, not just a very narrow perspective of its interest, but a wider view of its interests, this system has benefited America too. But the feelings are real, because globalisation over the decades has resulted in many cities and towns in America being completely de-industrialised, jobs being taken away, people losing their jobs, incomes stagnating. So the sentiments do exist. And when these sentiments exist, politicians react to the sentiments, and they take actions which they think will respond to these sentiments. That is what is happening in the US today. [翻译: 我们不认为这是解决之道。但是，如我之前提到，这届美国政府的做法反映的是一些美国民众日益增长的情绪，他们觉得美国为充当“世界警察”、维系全球体系付出太多，却没有得到相应的回报。但其实，我们认为美国恰恰是受益者。如果美国能以开明的态度界定自身利益，不局限于狭隘的利益视角，而是放眼更广阔的利益，就会发现这个体系对美国自身也是有利的。]

Ms Zou: Back here in Singapore, you are referred as the leader of 4G, the fourth generation of political leadership. So what core values do you believe define the governing style of 4G leaders, and what kind of narrative do 4G leaders aspire to create, especially in light of the remark you made that the best chapters of Singapore's story is yet to be written?
[翻译: 回到新加坡的议题，您被广泛视为第四代领导团队的领军人物。您认为第四代领导团队治国理念的核心价值是什么？您曾提到“新加坡故事最精彩的篇章尚未书写”，第四代领导者希望为国家书写什么样的篇章？]

PM Wong: The leadership we have now will continue to uphold the core values of the People's Action Party. These values will never change – the values of incorruptibility, meritocracy, multi-racialism because we are a diverse society, and self-reliance. So these core values will continue to be values that my team and I will uphold in governing Singapore. But at the same time, our leadership approach will be different. Every leader has to be himself, you cannot pretend to be someone else. My approach is to be open, to listen to different views and suggestions, even if there are views which are different from mine. I would like to listen to them, I would like to engage widely and involve as many people as possible. But at the end of the day, the government must decide, must come to a decision. Sometimes the decision is quite easy to make, because these are decisions that reflect popular thinking, and these are relatively straightforward decisions, but there will be occasions where the decisions are difficult to make. We had to do some of them during COVID when we imposed restrictions, or for example, when we have to raise taxes to balance the budget. No one would like to have taxes raised. So when we have to make a difficult decision, we will have to do our part to explain why these decisions have to be made, convince and persuade Singaporeans of the necessity of these decisions, and hope to bring people along. So that is the approach I take in governing Singapore, and I believe the rest of my colleagues in the Cabinet adopt a similar approach. And together with the mandate we have in this election, we hope we can continue to keep Singapore special, exceptional, a shining little red dot that will continue to add value to the world and ensure that everyone in Singapore can continue to achieve better lives.
[翻译: 我们现有的领导团队将继续坚守人民行动党的核心价值观。我们的价值观始终如一，廉洁执政、任人唯贤、多元种族理念，因为新加坡社会是非常多元且自力更生的。这些核心价值将继续成为我和我的团队治理新加坡所恪守的准则。但我们的领导风格会有所不同。每位领导者都应保持真我，不可矫饰伪装。我的风格是：开放包容，倾听各方意见和建议，即使观点相左我也愿意倾听。广泛协商，汇聚尽可能多人的智慧。但最终，政府必须作出决策。我们希望能够继续守护新加坡的独特性与卓越性，让新加坡始终成为一颗闪耀的“小红点”，继续为世界创造价值，同时确保每一位新加坡人都能过上更加美好的生活。]

Ms Zou: What do you mean by “a shining red dot”? It is small but it is very evident and it is shining. [翻译: 您说的“闪耀小红点”指什么呢？体量虽小但光彩夺目？]

PM Wong: It is a little red dot because that is the, I suppose, slogan that we have for ourselves. A little red dot, because we are a small country, but shining, because we want to continue adding value, being relevant, being attractive, a global city that will be competitive, attractive and will be special. History has never been kind to small countries. You look at the long arc of history, small countries find it very hard to survive. Singapore has defied the odds for 60 years; this is 60 years of independence this year. We will try to continue defying the odds of history and keep Singapore special.
[翻译: 我们自喻为“小红点”，因为我们国土虽小，但要熠熠生辉。历史从来不眷顾小国。回溯历史长河，小国往往难以生存。而新加坡已经屹立不倒60年了——今年正好是我们欢庆新加坡建国60周年。我们将继续挑战历史定律，守护新加坡的独特魅力。]

Ms Zou: It seems that you put lots of emphasis on refreshing and strengthening the social compact of Singapore through the initiative that you raised, called Forward Singapore exercise. So why, Mr Prime Minister, is building a fairer and more just society, crucial for Singapore, especially now?

PM Wong: Because we have seen around the world so many places where societies become divided and fractured. And one key reason why this happens, I talked about America just now, but it is not just in the US – you can see this in many other advanced countries, where people do not feel that their lives are getting better. So what if GDP is positive, but my life is not getting better, maybe only a few people are getting richer, but my life is not improving. And when that happens, trust is undermined; people feel that the system is not fair, they feel that the system is broken, and it becomes very hard to move forward as a society. These are real challenges, societies in many countries face these same pressures. In fact, all countries, every country in the world, be it China or Singapore, we all face similar pressures. And I think in a more challenging external environment, there will be even more powerful forces that threaten to pull our society apart. That is why, for me, Forward Singapore is such an important priority – it is about ensuring that the fruits of our nation's progress benefits every citizen, that every citizen is respected and valued. And if we can realise what we hope to achieve in Forward Singapore, then we can maintain a high level of solidarity and unity and keep Singapore a high-trust society. And with that unity, I am confident small though we may be, Singapore can overcome any challenges.

Ms Zou: How has your ordinary upbringing, growing up in HDB housing or going to neighbourhood school, shaped your understanding, about the everyday challenges of ordinary Singaporeans in a way?

PM Wong: Well, my background is what it is. I mean, I grew up in a HDB flat. I have gone to schools in the neighbourhood. I interact widely with people from all backgrounds. So it is what it is. I am sure there are people with different backgrounds. It does not mean that just because you grew up in a higher-income family or a different background, you cannot understand the needs, the circumstances of other Singaporeans. So as a Party, we welcome members from all backgrounds. We do not discriminate against anyone. But my background is what it is, and it has allowed me to interact widely with Singaporeans from different races, different religions, to make friends with people from all backgrounds. And that has made me who I am today.

Ms Zou: A very unique experience in your career is serving as a Principal Private Secretary to the then-Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong from 2005 to 2008. So what are some of the major lessons or the biggest source of inspiration that you gained from working very closely with Senior Minister Lee?
[翻译: 您的职业生涯有一段很独特的经历。2005年至2008年，您曾任新加坡时任总理李显龙的首席私人秘书。与李资政密切共事期间，您最大的收获或启发是什么？]

PM Wong: Well, I was his Principal Private Secretary for about three and a half to four years, and I was always struck by how devoted he was to Singapore, to the country, and how obsessed he was every single day thinking about how to keep Singapore going. Because, as I said just now, we feel the vulnerabilities more as a small country. Big countries, you may feel there are resources, you have got wealth, you have got many things you can rely on. But as a small country, we always feel we are vulnerable. We take nothing for granted. And I am always struck by how obsessed he was, every single day, thinking about how to keep Singapore moving forward, and to ensure that we leave behind a better country for the next generation. So now that the leadership baton has been passed to me, this has become my obsession, and I will do everything in my power, together with my teammates, to keep Singapore moving forward.
[翻译: 我曾担任他的首席私人秘书约3年半到4年。令我始终印象深刻的是他对新加坡、对这个国家的奉献精神与为国人谋福利的那一份执着。日复一日，他都在思考如何让这个国家持续发展。正如我刚才所说，作为小国，我们更能感受到自身的脆弱性。大国或许可以依赖资源和财富，但是作为小国必须时刻保持危机意识，居安思危。他的倾情投入总是让我深受触动，他一心思考如何推动新加坡前进，确保为下一代留下一个更美好的家园。如今，领导重任已交到我手中，这也成为了我倾注心血的事业。我将竭尽所能同团队并肩奋斗，继续推动新加坡向前发展。]

Ms Zou: And I also noted that it is very interesting you once mentioned that when you started your career as a research economist in the Ministry of Trade and Industry, that you were brimming with confidence and armed to the teeth with all the theories learned from school, only to be shocked by the significant gap between the knowledge from textbook and also the real world realities. So how has these early recognitions, realisations or experiences shaped your considerations and approach in policy-making later on in your career?

PM Wong: I should clarify that it does not mean that studying from textbooks is not important. I think that the theory is always important, and having good, strong foundations is important. And I value that. I value whatever I had learnt as an economist, or learnt from university, from college. All the theories, foundations, these are very valuable underpinnings. But inevitably, in real life, not everything follows the theory. There are many things that we are still not aware of. There are many things that can never be predicted in real life, so there will always be that gap. And I think as a policymaker, we should embrace knowledge, we should embrace better understanding. But at the same time, strive to make sure that our policies are applied to real life context and considerations, real life circumstances. That means it is more challenging because we have to always anticipate how people react to policies. I mean, there is a Chinese saying, you have a policy sort of intent, and you have a policy desire, but the people may always circumvent, they may always get around the policy. So there are always unintended consequences. There are always behavioural responses that you have to anticipate, and these may not be learnt from theory and textbooks, but they are learnt from practice. And then you keep improving, and you keep making policies better and better all the time. That is our attitude. We do not believe we get it right and perfect all the time. There may be areas for improvement. We get feedback from Singaporeans, we learn from other countries, and we keep on wanting to do better.

Ms Zou: The gap that you refer to is actually because that was a different time, was the financial crisis. That was why it was such a shock.

PM Wong: That was ’97 – the 1997 Asian financial crisis. I suppose at that time, there was a certain conventional wisdom about the Asian tigers, how strong and no one had anticipated that a currency crisis like that happening in one country, could have a contagion effect on so many other countries in the region.

Ms Zou: And also, Mr Prime Minister, when you first emerged as the new leader of the nation, I do not know whether you have noticed that if you take closer look at the headlines at that time about media coverage of you, there are sometimes a phrase that is frequently used. Do you know what it is?
[翻译: 总理先生，您刚刚上任成为新任国家领导人的时候，不知道您有没有注意过，当时一些媒体头条在报道您时常常会用到一个特别的词语。您知道吗？]

PM Wong: I have no idea. There were so many phrases.
[翻译: 我倒是没有特别留意，媒体的说法很多。]

Ms Zou: Sometimes it is “guitar-playing new Prime Minister” or “guitar-wielding Prime Minister”. We heard it is actually a guitar from your father, a gift when you were a child about 40 years ago, which sparked your passion for music and playing guitar. So how has this musical journey served as a role of expression and inspiration for you through all those years?
[翻译: 有时媒体会用“弹吉他的总理”或者“手持吉他的总理”这样的说法。听说那把吉他是您小时候父亲送给您的礼物。大概是40年多前。那个礼物也点燃了您对音乐和吉他的热爱。那么，这些年来，音乐在您的生活中扮演着怎样的角色？它如何成为您表达自我、汲取灵感的方式？]

PM Wong: Well, I started playing at a very young age, maybe eight years old, or something like that. But I never had formal lessons. I was largely self-taught. So I do not claim to play very well, at all.
[翻译: 没错，那是很久以前的事了。我从很小的时候，大概8岁就开始学吉他了。但我从来没有正式学过。对，基本上是自学的，所以也谈不上弹得多好。]

Ms Zou: That is very modest, because we saw some of the videos.
[翻译: 您太谦虚了，我们看过一些您弹吉他的视频。]

PM Wong: But I enjoy doing it. I enjoy playing and I have been doing it for many years, for more than 40 years now. I find that music helps to break barriers. It helps to bring people together, and so I enjoy doing it. For me personally, I just find it is a good way to unwind, to destress, especially doing a job like this, you do need outlets to relax from time to time, and so music and playing the guitar is one outlet for me.
[翻译: 但我乐在其中，这份对吉他的热爱已持续40多年了。我觉得音乐能打破隔阂、拉近彼此的距离，所以我很喜欢音乐。对我个人来说，音乐是一种放松的方式。特别是对于我目前的工作来说，有时候确实需要一些方式来舒缓压力。音乐、弹吉他就是我放松的一种方式。]

Ms Zou: Now as the Prime Minister of Singapore, do you still have time to enjoy a little bit and to play guitar by yourself?

PM Wong: By myself, yes, from time to time when I need to do so. But certainly not so much time anymore to play outside with friends and people in the band, which I used to do.

Ms Zou: Is there a go-to Chinese song that you really enjoyed when playing your guitar? We are just wondering.
[翻译: 那您有没有特别喜欢弹的中文歌曲？我们也很好奇。]

PM Wong: There are a few, but I have grown up mostly playing English songs. That is my family background. But since entering politics, I have played a number of Chinese songs, for example, 周华建’s《朋友》, is one song that I would play in my constituency.
[翻译: 我弹过一些中文歌曲，比如周华健的《朋友》，我在选区活动中也会弹这首歌。]

Ms Zou: And apart from the political legacy, of course, is there some special musical inspiration that you want the next generation of Singaporeans to remember about you?

PM Wong: No. Music is just my personal hobby and passion.

Ms Zou: Mr Prime Minister, thank you so much for sharing with us your time and also your insightful views, greatly appreciated.
[翻译: 总理先生，感谢您抽出宝贵时间接受我们的采访，也非常感谢您分享这些真知灼见！非常感谢！]

PM Wong: Thank you very much.
[翻译: 也谢谢你！]