PM Lawrence Wong in an interview with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (Oct 2025)

Laura Tingle (ABC): Prime Minister, thank you for your time.

Prime Minister Lawrence Wong: Not at all, happy to be here.

ABC: You are visiting Australia to mark 60 years since the establishment of Singapore and the relationship between our two countries. What is your main message going to be?

PM Wong: That we are partners. It is a partnership that has grown from strength to strength, and I am committed to this partnership, and I want to see it grow, and I want to do more together. As we enter a profoundly changing world, I believe this partnership matters more than ever. If you look at how we have grown over these last 60 years, it has been an incredible journey. Australia was amongst the very first countries to recognise Singapore when we became independent and one of the very first to establish diplomatic ties with us. And in the last 60 years, the relationship has grown in diverse and profound ways.

There is still scope to do more together, I believe. And it helps that between us, our two countries, we have very similar strategic outlooks and perspectives. I am always struck – I have attended many multilateral meetings over the years, over 15 years – the intervention points made by my Australian counterpart and I are usually very similar. Not identical – of course there are differences – but on the big issues around security, around free trade, the rules-based order, we have very similar interests. So our key strategic interests are aligned and that makes us natural friends and partners.

ABC: Well, we have certainly both got a great interest in maintaining some sort of multilateral world which is under pressure, but if we look at the direct relationship, the bilateral relationship – there is a Free Trade Agreement. Does that need to be updated? And what has changed in the economic relationship since it was first signed that needs to be addressed perhaps?

PM Wong: Well, actually the broader bilateral relationship covers more than trade. Defence cooperation, for example, is very strong. In fact, this year marks the 50th anniversary since the Singapore Armed Forces first started training in Australia, and we are deeply appreciative of the hospitality that Australians have extended to our personnel. And we also want Australians to know that in times of need, our armed forces stands ready to help, as we have done consistently over past years, most recently, for flood relief efforts in Queensland. So that is one area which we hope to strengthen further, and we have a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership (CSP) covering the broad range of cooperation between our two countries. Prime Minister Albanese and I agreed earlier to upgrade the CSP. It covers trade, it covers defence, and other areas. So I look forward to launching this upgrade when I visit Australia soon, for my first visit as Prime Minister.

ABC: Sure. As you mentioned, defence is very significant part of the relationship. Now many countries, including Australia, have been criticised by the US for not spending enough on defence but Singapore has always maintained a high level of spend and commitment to defence. How would you like to see that defence relationship develop with Australia?

PM Wong: We already have a very strong base, as I mentioned just now. I think we can go further. For example, we are discussing possibilities for our respective militaries to be able to access defence facilities in each of our countries. That is an enhanced cooperation. We are looking at defence technology cooperation as well as defence logistics and supply chains. And that will enable our defence cooperation to go even further.

On the economic side, we are looking at enhancing cooperation beyond what we already have through the free-trade agreement. We have been talking about supply chain resilience between our two economies. Remember what happened during Covid? When everyone was scrambling for essential supplies. But between the two of us, because of the deep trust that we have between our two countries, we were able to provide mutual help and to have vaccine swaps in times of need.

And so, building on what happened during Covid, we are discussing whether we can have a supply chain agreement that will allow essential supplies to continue flowing between our two countries, including during times of disruptions. And of course, we have new areas of cooperation in the economic domain as well, like Artificial Intelligence, clean energy, where we can enhance collaboration, including in R&D in these areas.

ABC: Because one of the amazing transformations in Singapore is that, first of all, you managed to become the world's third largest oil refiner, and now you are making this really aggressive push into green energy. What role can Australia help with that?

PM Wong: There is a lot we can do together. In terms of looking at R&D in green energy for example, we are very interested in that, and we would like to discuss further. We have a lot more constraints compared to Australia. You can be a green energy superpower. We are constrained all around. We are too small, we have no access to renewable energy at scale, so it is much harder for us.

Whether or not we can import green energy sources, we are discussing from multiple projects. There is an interest from an Australian company. (Australia) is very far away. I am not sure how they will make it work, but they have expressed an interest and so we look at these options. But beyond that, looking at R&D research – for us, looking at how we can understand better new technologies in a whole range of areas, including hydrogen, carbon capture, even civilian nuclear; something that we are studying very closely.

Thirdly, working together to accelerate the green transition in Southeast Asia, which is important. We ourselves have limited ability to deploy green energy, but Southeast Asia has tremendous potential. So looking at access to technology, financing, these are all ways in which Singapore and Australia can work together to help accelerate that green transition in Southeast Asia.

ABC: Just going back to defence, you were talking about greater use of each other's facilities. What sort of things do you think that might involve in terms of Australian involvement in Singapore?

PM Wong: Well, it is something we are discussing. It is not unusual. We provide our facilities, for example, for American forces when they do their rotations in this part of the world. So we are discussing the specifics of what we can do together with Australia, and I am sure there will be details coming out in due course.

ABC: As a defence partner, what is your view then of the AUKUS relationship, both in terms of the commitment to nuclear submarines, but also the so-called Pillar Two access to other technologies from the US? I mean that is something that is obviously got strategic implications for Singapore.

PM Wong: Sure, we have always said that both Australia and Singapore are aligned in this. We feel that America is a benign force, and America's security umbrella in this part of the world is crucial for providing that framework for stability and continued prosperity in Asia.

So we support America's continued presence in Asia, and we think that AUKUS can be a positive force in that direction – contributing to stability and continued prosperity in this part of the world. That is our view of AUKUS, and Australia has made that choice of course – it is Australia's choice to make. But these security partnerships, we believe, do help to enhance the overall stability of the region.

The key for us in Southeast Asia is that the region must also at the same time continue to remain open and inclusive. So Southeast Asia's view is that we must never allow ourselves to be dominated by any single power. We reject zero-sum competition. We want a region where all the major powers are deeply engaged in this part of the world.

Because we have been the arena for proxy wars between major powers in the past. It has been painful. We do not want that to happen again, and across all Southeast Asian countries, while each one may have a different view of its relationship with America and China, there is that overall commitment and understanding that we want a region that is open, inclusive, that engages all the key players.

ABC: Let us talk about the global situation. You spoke in your National Day speech about how Singapore has benefited from an American-led, rules-based order for decades but noted that the US was now falling back. Some of your ministers have talked about how that order has now come to an end. Could you talk us through the economic consequences for a small city-state like Singapore, with that change as things seem to be heading.

PM Wong: I think the consequences are huge. We do not quite know yet what would happen going forward, because it is still so uncertain, no one can predict. But one thing is clear – for multiple decades, we have seen a continued trend of lower tariffs. Now for the first time, we are entering an era where tariffs are higher, more volatile. And tariffs, once raised, typically will be very hard to bring down again. So we must be prepared. We are going to enter a period where there will be greater economic fragmentation.

In the worst case, if the trajectory continues, we end up in a world with competing blocs and exclusive spheres of influence, and that would be unstable and dangerous for all – not just small countries like Singapore, but Australia and many other countries.

So it is in our shared interest to try and avoid that, prevent that from happening. And in many ways, I feel that while the major powers, of course, have a lot of say and influence in how these things pan out, the rest of the world – countries like Australia and Singapore – we do not have to be passive bystanders. We have agency, and we can work amongst ourselves to help preserve the multilateral frameworks that matter. So that in time to come, a new order will emerge, but we do what we can to help this transition and nudge it in the right direction.

ABC: That was very much the message that our Prime Minister was giving at the UN.

PM Wong: Very much so.

ABC: You are also part of the Future of Investment and Trade Partnership.

PM Wong: Yes.

ABC: Can you explain what that is and how that differs from other multilateral agreements?

PM Wong: Sure. I will call it a startup venture, because these are small economies, trade dependent. We have convened, a few of us together with an idea of advancing new forward-leaning trade initiatives that would enable us to demonstrate commitment to the rules-based framework. And if we develop some of these interesting and new ideas further, clearly, the intention is not just to keep it to ourselves or to replace the WTO, but to multi-lateralise it. So we call these sorts of initiatives pathfinders. They are really a form of flexible multilateralism. It is a way for us to bring like-minded countries together and to affirm our commitment to a rules-based trading system. Perhaps innovate in new areas like digital trade, where rules have not caught up with reality, and then eventually we can expand that to other countries.

ABC: Would you like to see Australia become involved?

PM Wong: Oh, for sure.

ABC: And it is interesting. I mean, we are talking about the WTO has sort of become a bit, you know, bogged down in its own bureaucracy. Is it a way of, sort of escaping all the history of the WTO, but not its purpose?

PM Wong: Well, it is partly that, but it does not mean we give up on the WTO. We have to do it both in parallel. We have to continue trying to reform the WTO. Reforms are needed, and Australia and Singapore have worked together on that front too. For example, we convened together with Japan an initiative on e-commerce, and that got countries together. We negotiated an agreement on e-commerce, which now forms the first set of global rules around digital trade – that is very helpful. And so we should not give up on the WTO. We need to press forward with reform efforts. But in parallel, we can start these sorts of plurilateral, regional initiatives that complement multilateralism and reinforce multilateral rules.

So the FIT-P – the Future of Investment and Trade Partnership – is one of them. Another idea that I have been discussing with Prime Minister Albanese is how we can expand CPTPP. Both of us are members of CPTPP, and we have been looking at how we might engage EU and ASEAN in a more formal partnership together with the CPTPP. And if you look at all three blocs or groupings combined, that is a sizable chunk of the global economy – more than 35%. And if all three of us are able to come together with some understanding on a stronger partnership that reaffirms multilateral rules for trade, I think that would be worth doing, and that would certainly help steer things in the right direction.

ABC: One of the biggest economic shocks the globe is feeling comes from Donald Trump's Liberation Day tariffs, you gave a really powerful address to the nation in response to that.

PM Wong: So did Prime Minister Albanese.

ABC: Yeah, and like Australia, Singapore was only facing an original tariff rate of 10% but there have now been bigger shocks just in the last few days really, on pharmaceuticals.

PM Wong: Yes.

ABC: And the signs are not good on semiconductors.

PM Wong: Yes.

ABC: What does that mean for Singapore? I mean, these are big sectors for you.

PM Wong: They are.

ABC: What sort of impact is it likely to have on your economy?

PM Wong: We are very concerned. First of all, on the original tariff, we have said it should be zero, not 10. Same for Australia, there is no reason for it to be 10. America has a surplus with us. We have an FTA, but we accept that this is the baseline tariff that America has decided. So the 10% rate now applies. Now we are discussing with our American counterparts on the sectoral tariffs – pharmaceuticals and semiconductors – the discussions are still underway, so I would let the ministers and officials go through that process, and hopefully we might get a good landing on that, in that area. But regardless, we do expect an impact on our economy.

Up to now we have not felt the impact very much in the first half of this year. That is partly because many companies, I think, have been front-loading their activities. But we do see signs of spending, business spending and confidence coming down. And more than the tariffs alone, is the uncertainty that is causing businesses to hold back any new investments, and that will surely impact the external environment, and because we are so dependent on external demand, it will surely impact our economy in the coming months, and including into next year.

ABC: It also probably specifically undermines confidence in the US, because of the uncertainty. Obviously, you have got a very big sovereign wealth fund here. Is it affecting the sort of decisions that the sovereign wealth fund makes about investments in US treasury bonds, what happens to the dollar? Those sorts of questions?

PM Wong: I suppose when we look at investments, we look at risk, and you would have to consider some of the heightened risk associated with all these developments, but you also have to ask yourself, returns, diversification considerations and all these other matters. So there will continue to be allocation into America. And from our point of view, from the investment entities perspectives, we also look beyond market cycles or one, two year, few short years – we look at the longer term. And as far as the American economy is concerned, as far as innovation, for example – not so much on the Treasury or bonds side, but in terms of company dynamism – we believe a lot of that still exists in America. As far as the US dollar is concerned, I do not think there are any alternatives in the foreseeable future for a reserve currency.

ABC: To what extent is the region rewiring itself in response to this? I mean, there is a lot of talk about the capacity of Southeast Asia to move manufacturing capacity depending on economic conditions. Have you seen signs that relationships, supply chains have already started to shift? And I will ask you also just about that focus you mentioned earlier about ASEAN and got a joint interest now in working out how you respond to this.

PM Wong: Some of that should – rewiring of supply chains had happened earlier, because even before we talked about Liberation Day tariffs, remember, there was a lot of people talking about China Plus One as a diversification strategy. So you already see some of that happening – factories in Vietnam, Indonesia, in other Southeast Asian countries. To be clear, already within Southeast Asia, we already have a very interlinked supply chain network from country to country. And so even before tariffs happened, you had started to see people diversifying into Southeast Asia, putting up more factories and configuring the supply chains around ASEAN.
We start to see a lot more interest after the tariffs happened. But at the same time, because of the uncertainty, as I mentioned earlier, we also see companies saying, “look, I better not put in new investments, because I am not sure what might happen later on”. So it is still early days, but if the trend continues in this direction, I would not be surprised if there will be more interest to shift more production into Southeast Asia and capitalise on the supply chain network that we provide in ASEAN.

But this is not to be taken for granted. We in Southeast Asia also have to do our part to make ourselves a more attractive single market and there is still work to be done. There is still a lot of work to be done because ASEAN, yes, is virtually tariff-free, but it is not an easy place to do business. It is complex. There are non-tariff barriers for investments, and we have to work even harder to bring all these down. But there is a desire to do so amongst the leadership of ASEAN. We are working on bringing our economies closer together, connecting up our payment systems, linking up infrastructure better; so a whole host of projects that we are working on for which there will also be opportunities for Australia to participate in.

ABC: In some ways, I mean, President Trump has been a shock to the system, but it is not an all-bad thing, in a way. I mean you see, whether it is the European Union or the ASEAN countries, where everybody is having to actually go, wait a minute, we have to think about this anew. It has actually sort of galvanised people a bit, has it not?

PM Wong: I suppose you can look at that as a silver lining in dark clouds. Yes, we are. It has provided a lot of catalyst. I would acknowledge that. But as I said earlier, we do worry that we are entering a world where there are no longer strong anchors holding the multilateral framework together, and it has become a world where more and more countries look out for their own private national interests, their own self-interests, in a very narrow sense. And when that trend continues, I think the public interest goes down the drain. And when that happens, we are all in trouble.

ABC: You said you do not want to see the region being dominated by one superpower. What is your assessment of how the two superpowers, or however many you think there, are approaching the region now?

PM Wong: Well, they all say they do not want us to choose sides, but–

ABC: They sort of, they are sort of compelling you too, are they not?

PM Wong: But I suppose they would all like us to be closer to each one of them. And there are, truth be told, there are many areas for substantive cooperation with both America and China. China is the largest trading partner for many countries – in fact, almost all the countries in Southeast Asia. America is still the largest investor in terms of FDI flows. So America too has a deep interest in this part of the world.

So from our point of view, we want to continue doing business with both America and China and other key partners too, like the Europeans, which we believe can have stronger links with ASEAN. Or for that matter, forging closer links with other new partners, like recently, when we had our ASEAN Summit, we did a summit together with the GCC, the Gulf Cooperation Council. If ASEAN is strong, and ASEAN is integrated, I believe we are not without agency. As long as we stay strong and integrated, united, we can provide our part of the world as an open region, engaging all the different powers. And it is very hard for any country to say, “It is either me or not at all”.

Because we are living in a world that is so interdependent, even between America and China. Both sides are trying very hard to insulate themselves from one another, but they cannot completely decouple. It is impossible.

ABC: It is interesting that they, of all places that there has not been a tariff deal struck or asserted, it is China.

PM Wong: Well, both sides are talking. President Xi and President Trump may very well meet at APEC in Korea. Let us see if a deal can be struck there. I think it is good that they are engaging one another because the two have to coexist. There is competition, there is rivalry, there is intense mistrust on both sides. But still, they have to work together in order to avoid collision or confrontation, or worse, a miscalculation that leads to conflict in Asia. And none of us want to see a conflict in this part of the world.

ABC: Which leads us to the question of Taiwan. You said recently, “We are all very concerned if something were to break out of Taiwan, everyone in Asia would be sucked in”. US Secretary of Defence, Elbridge Colby was earlier this year asking Australia and Japan to pre-commit to their positions if a conflict arose over Taiwan. Does Singapore have a position?

PM Wong: No, we do not talk about hypothetical scenarios. But our position is very clear. We oppose Taiwanese independence. We have a One China Policy and we believe that all parties, Taiwan, America, China, should not bring about any unilateral move away from the status quo, especially moves that would be done in a non-peaceful manner. We may not be able to think of any good near-term solutions now, but there are many other wicked problems in the world where we do not have good solutions now. (It) does not mean that we force a solution through confrontation.

I think a better way is to maintain the status quo, continue engagement as much as possible. And the path of diplomacy does not always move in straight lines. It curves and bends. And in time to come, they may find a better resolution to the issue, but let us keep talking and engaging, and for the time being, make sure that the status quo remains.

ABC: So when you say that the rest of the region get sucked in, you mean that it is a question of being forced to take a side or it would just suffer from the chaos that would come?

PM Wong: A bit of both – it depends on what happens. It depends on what happens if the situation escalates.

ABC: How concerned are you that it might at the moment?

PM Wong: I think for now, neither America nor China would want an escalation to happen. So it is not something that would happen out of a rational decision, or an act that would catalyse or precipitate an escalation. But the risk is an accident or a miscalculation. And that has always been the case when you look at this throughout history. So much of conflicts happen through a miscalculation or something that happens on the ground, unintended consequences then follow after that.

So that is the risk, and which is why it is important for there to be continued engagement, lines of communication, so that should any such things happen on the ground, the key parties can quickly come together to address these sorts of concerns.

ABC: Singapore can play a pretty important role in that, given your connections with those countries, can you not?

PM Wong: A lot of people say that. We try to be helpful. But the two big powers have direct lines of contact too. We can be helpful and if they would ever like to meet, find a venue for a summit to be held, I suppose we can be a good host and pour tea for them.

ABC: Most countries seem to be experiencing not just a breakdown in global relations, but in relations at home. You won an election earlier this year, but you have noted both attempts at foreign interference in the campaign and I think what you describe as attempts internally to divide the country on racial and religious lines. Can you tell us about those threats and how much of an ongoing threat they are here in Singapore? I mean, you have managed to be a very cohesive society until now.

PM Wong: We have been very fortunate. But we are always mindful that these potential divides can be easily exploited and stirred – race, religion and other new emerging societal divides, for example, along social economic outcomes. Very easy to exploit them and bring about undermining trust. And when you see that happening – you see in many places, when that happens, it is very, very, very hard to put things back together again.

So we are very vigilant on that front, including on foreign attempts at exploiting these potential fault lines, and also within Singapore, how some of these fault lines can get exploited. It is an ongoing work in progress. It never ends. I mean, we would like to eventually come to a stage where we say race does not matter, these things do not matter. That is an ideal. But in the meantime, we have to stay vigilant. We have to keep reminding our people, and we have to keep working at different platforms where different groups come together, interact with one another.

Because if you have less interactions with someone who is different from you, then it is very easy to point to that person as a competitor, or to demonise a particular group. And when all-out struggle between groups emerge, as you see in many places, especially in a small, compact city like Singapore, and we have experienced the trauma of racial riots before, and we have said repeatedly, let us never allow that to happen. But generations have passed. The generation that experienced it would be people like my parents, who are in their 80s, and they said, “Never again”. Well, the next generation did not experience it personally, but we heard firsthand stories. Now you have got younger and younger people, and they just read about these in textbooks or in schools, it is not a personal connection. And so, you have to get that conviction through our population to say, “This is serious. It can completely unravel our society. And let us never, let us all be committed never to allow that to happen to Singapore.”

ABC: Thank you for talking to us about all those big picture questions. I do have to ask you about Optus.

PM Wong: Sure.

ABC: I am sure that you would not tolerate the service power outages to emergency calls we have now repeatedly seen from Optus in Singapore. So as the majority shareholder, Optus is under Singtel. What actions are you personally taking to ensure this does not happen again?

PM Wong: First of all, I can fully understand the anger, frustration and outrage by what happened. And I would like to extend my condolences to everyone who has been impacted by the outage, especially the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives. As far as Singapore is concerned, while we may be shareholder through Temasek, we have always operated on a very clear cardinal principle that we do not get involved in commercial operations. We do not direct commercial matters.

We want these companies to operate commercially, and when they do and when they expand overseas, we fully expect them and their subsidiaries to comply with domestic laws where they operate and to be responsible corporate citizens.

So in this instance, I believe the Singtel CEO was in Australia recently. They will, I am sure, cooperate fully with the authorities, with the regulator, and work closely with Optus and whichever other independent parties that have been appointed to conduct a full investigation into what happened. And I hope they get to the bottom of it as soon as possible, identify the root causes, rectify the issue and restore confidence and trust as soon as possible.

ABC: Prime Minister, thank you once again.

PM Wong: Thank you.

ABC: Thank you so much for your time.

PM Wong: Good talking to you.

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