SM Lee Hsien Loong at the NUS120 Kent Ridge Ministerial Forum 2025 Dialogue

Moderator (Associate Professor Leong Ching): Senior Minister, thank you very much for making the time, and welcome to NUS.

SM Lee Hsien Loong: Very happy to be back.

Moderator: Thank you sir; and may I also say welcome to the 328 students who are not from NUS, and come from all over Singapore. I think a lot of you may not know, and in fact, quite a lot of NUS students may not know that part of NUS was actually not NUS. It was a country club just across the road. Some of you may have been in primary school or kindergarten at the time, but in 2013, the country club became what we know today as University Town. And the guest of honour who officially declared that open was then-Prime Minister Lee. So we are so happy to welcome you back again, sir.

If I may start with that and think about Singapore and the competing needs of a small country – land use, of course, being one – how much do you think, sir, that being a small country has defined us as Singapore, and what other elements do you think are present?

SM Lee: I think being small is a very deep part of our psyche. If we were not small, people would not call us a Little Red Dot. But when they did call us a Little Red Dot, we took pride in that, and it is a key part of what makes us Singaporean; because some of what makes us Singaporean is what we make of ourselves, right? It is very important how successful we can be, what our ideals are. We believe in multiracialism and meritocracy. We believe in the National Pledge, and we also have a certain spirit of Singaporeans − the way we look at the world, the way we interact with one another. These are things which are within our control.

Some things we cannot change. For example, geography. We are tiny; but what is even more important is that surrounding us are countries which are not tiny at all, and therefore we become a Little Red Dot. And that is never going to change. I think our history – that has happened. You can add to it, but it will not change. We have existed since 14th century – as Temasek then Singapura. Raffles came and made this a colony, a British colony. We went through Malaysia. We became independent. And that journey is what made Singapore what it is today. That is history that cannot change.

Then you have our demography: multiracial, a Chinese majority, with Malays, Indians, Eurasians and others. And I think that is very deep in our psyche too, which has made us also what we are.

So I think all these add together. And if you ask a Singaporean what it means to be one, all these would be somewhere in his mind. If you ask a foreigner what he thinks of when he sees a Singaporean or recognises one, he will think of some of these things. That is why the Little Red Dot was a name not given by us to ourselves, but by a certain foreign president who said: “That Little Red Dot. Look at that huge sea of green in Southeast Asia. That Singapore is just this little place.” We are proud of that.

Moderator: Thank you very much Sir. Can I ask you a little bit about the shared history and what Singaporeans think of ourselves − that is a little bit about society. The first was about country, and the second about the sort of society that we are. As you say, the Little Red Dot is a name conferred to us, not meant to as a complimentary term, but one that we have made something to be proud about.

SM Lee: Yes.

Moderator: And that requires all of us to think of ourselves a certain way.

SM Lee: Well, you have to have a certain confidence. If somebody says you are a Little Red Dot, I will say, “Yes, I am little. I shall show you I can shine.” And you have to take pride in it and feel that this is my place, I belong here, I have ownership of this place, and I will make something out of it. And I think that makes Singapore tick and makes Singapore what it is. If we did not feel like that, then this would just be another one island out of maybe, 20,000 islands all over Southeast Asia. There are any number of them, but this place is on the map.

Moderator: So in 1999 when Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong at the time had talked about the Singapore tribe, he thought that, if [there was] to be a strong sort of sense of identity, we needed to identify ourselves as a tribe. But he thought that to make a real tribe, it will be built only when we have gone through fire together. And I recalled it was 1999. He said the younger generation of Singaporeans have had no experience of hardship, let alone racial riots and external threats. Their lives have been mainly plain sailing, so their bonds to Singapore and the sense of service to the country is not as strong as the older generation. So at the time, he felt maybe the Singapore tribe was not quite as formed yet. But since 1999, we have had quite a lot–

SM Lee: Quite a lot of excitement.

Moderator: Right? So four years after that, it was SARS, right? And then thereafter that, many things – subprime crisis, we had the longest drought in 150 years. And most recently, of course, Covid. So we have, maybe not to the same degree as the first generation of Singaporeans, but I mean, the last 25 years–

SM Lee: I think every generation will have your own crisis. Do not worry, it will come. I do not wish it upon you, but it will come, whether you like it or not. And since 1965 when we became independent – which in itself was an existential crisis, which we went through and survived – we have had quite a few ups and downs, and we have gone through them together, and generally speaking done reasonably well. And as this historical memory builds, and the shared experience of having lived through it and endured it and come through, is ingrained in our collective psyche. I think that sense of Singaporean-ness, of a shared national identity, gradually strengthens. And in 1999 until now, as you said, we have had SARS, we have had the global financial crisis in 2007/2008, we have had Covid-19. Now we have got superpower rivalry. We have got the United States with President Trump and his administration taking a completely different approach to the world, which means very drastic implications in the long term for a small country like Singapore, which is completely dependent on globalisation and international trade for making a living.

I think I can say that the national identity is stronger. But at the same time, it is not the only tribe which we belong to, because we all have different layers to our identity. We are Singaporean – it is very important to us. But we are also Chinese Singaporean or Malay Singaporean or Indian Singaporean. We are also Christians or Muslims or Buddhists. You may also have different political views. You may be pro-government, you may be pro-opposition, you may have different sexual orientations, and therefore different circles of friends and different perspectives on the world. So these are all different layers to our identity, which are always there. And I think if we are honest about it, we would say the national identity as a Singaporean − it is important. But it is not the only one we have.

And for many Singaporeans, it is not the most important part of his identity. If you poll them, you will find that for many Singaporeans, religion is a very important part of their identity − particularly for Muslims, particularly for Christians, and amongst the Christians, particularly amongst the non-Catholics. And there are other elements as well. Race is very important. Language is important, especially for the older generations. Younger ones all speak English. But even so, if the Prime Minister does a National Day Rally and does not speak in Malay or Chinese, I think everybody will feel a sense of loss.

So these are all other aspects, and we must know that we are one people. But we are not all identical. And there are fault lines which we have to guard.

Moderator: SM, can I ask you about the challenges to this togetherness, this sense of being one nation. You had at one point, identified two opposing forces that challenged this sense of national identity. The first is the force of globalisation. And you said there is a chance that we will all become citizens of the world, and then we will just be dissolved by globalisation. So that means you are really a citizen of all countries, or no one in particular. The second one is if we fought among ourselves and fractured along fault lines within Singapore. So today, I mean, you made the speech about 10 years ago. So today, of these two challenges, which one do you see as the greater challenge?

SM Lee: I think both remain risks. It is very hard to say which is the more salient one, because it varies with issues. If an external development happens − for example, the war in the Middle East between Israel and Hamas − we feel the differential tugs in Singapore. We are all upset about it, but the Muslims are much more upset about it than the non-Muslims. It is a reality. It is natural. If something happens in India, the Indian Singaporeans − many of them will have a much closer interest in that than non-Indian Singaporeans. If something happens in China or in Taiwan − again, there are different pulls, and that is a pull on a majority community in Singapore.

And you are talking about very powerful external forces. China's influence in the world is growing. India is developing, with Mr Modi taking a much higher international profile. The war in the Middle East is going to go on for a very long time in one form or other. So we are going to be pulled in the immediate term from time to time in very different directions. And our job is to resist that and to remember: “Yes, I am Muslim, or I am Chinese, or I am Indian, but I am also Singaporean, and I do hold something here, and I belong here and I should look at the world, starting from here”.

Now, if you look at it somewhat longer term and ask, “What happens to Singapore, maybe 20, 30 years from now?” We are all educated quite well. Many will have gone to university. Already about half of Singaporeans go to university. And probably over their lifetimes, more will. I have skills, I can travel and maybe it is a little bit harder now, but quite a lot of countries will be willing to take me. And what is it which is going to make me feel that I am Singaporean and I belong here?

If I am Japanese, it is quite clear. The Japanese – first, ethnically they are more homogenous. Secondly, language-wise, most of them speak mainly Japanese. It is a significant chunk of islands − you belong there. That is who you are.

Now in Singapore, we belong here. We think this is who we are. But at the same time, individual Singaporeans could belong in many other places. What makes you decide you want to be here and this is your home? And it cannot just be the char kway teow or the durian, it has to be something deeper. And that takes time to build up.

Moderator: The question of what makes a Singaporean choose to be Singaporean, as you know, Mr Rajaratnam said being Singaporean is not ancestry, but choice and conviction.

SM Lee: Yes.

Moderator: He meant it in a very specific way though. Not the choice, like, where do you want to be, where do you want to make your home, how do you decide what nationality. He meant in a specific way to say, the commitment to Singapore, being Singaporean to him, and he said, “Being Singaporean means forgetting all else in your commitment to Singapore.”

SM Lee: Well, I think forgetting all else is a very tall order. Mr Rajaratnam believed in it. He was an idealist. He himself held that uppermost. As I explained, for many people, being Singaporean is important, but it may not be the most important part of your identity. And we have to accept that is the way people are. That is the way Singaporeans are. And so you do not necessarily wake up every day and say, well – just as I say my daily prayers or mantra; every morning, I do not stand up and recite the Pledge to myself. We are Singaporeans. But it is just one aspect of my identity, and I have to decide how important I want that to be.

For the first generation, for Raja’s generation, in the early years, when he said, “It's choice and conviction”. What were the choices? Either you decide to stand up and fight for the kind of Singapore which we believed in, which comes back to one united people, regardless of race, language or religion; or you choose to – nowadays, they will say, 躺平, lie flat. Meaning, I accept whatever happens to me. There are other powers, other influences which say this is the way you should be and you should do my bidding. I just accept that, and I just accept my fate. That is a choice. It is a choice to do nothing, but it is a choice. So for that generation, the choice was to stand, fight, and build.

Now this generation is a beneficiary from the stand, fight and build. What is their choice? It is still one. And the choice is − do I decide to continue this and continue the mission which was really passed to us, which made this place like this, and keep on making it better? Or do I say, “Thank you very much. This is marvellous. You have provided me wings. I am flying. Bye-bye. I am off to − it can be San Francisco, it can be Sydney, it can be London, it can be Shanghai, it can be Bengaluru. And I will be okay, and I hope you will be okay too.” That is a choice too. So there will be people around the world, and it is reasonable choice, and we hope that they come back one day. I think quite a good number will. But we also hope that there will be many who will say, “You are here. We built this place. I inherited it, I have a duty to hand it on better, to the next generation.”

And the next generation will include not just our children, but also other people who have come to Singapore and made a very conscious choice that they identify with us, they subscribe to our ideals, our values, and they want to make this their home. And that is a very big decision to make.

And so I think for this generation too, it has to be choice and conviction. If you just so happen to be here and tomorrow the wind blows, poof, and you are blown off, well, tomorrow you will not be here, and Singapore will not be here.

Moderator: So there is a certain set of values and core values that we all sort of must subscribe to and feel strongly for. That is why we are here.

SM Lee: Well, you must have some conviction in how we do things in Singapore, what we are trying to achieve in Singapore, what we can rely upon in each other, and how we can make the country go forward. You have to believe that it is possible for us to work together, that we can solve problems. You cannot change the world, but you can find a place, a way, for Singapore to find its path forward. And in Singapore, you can do that. And if you are in Singapore and you want to make a difference, you can make a difference. If you are in a big country with 1000 million people, and you want to make a difference, it is much harder.

Moderator: SM, can I ask you a little bit − to your previous point about our different identities, and to end with this specific point, about the choice. So given that we have different identities, “I'm not just Singaporean, I'm Chinese”. And race and ethnicity are very powerful forces, as you say, Mr. Rajaratnam’s idea of choice is choosing to forget some part of identity. And when he said forget, he did not mean it in the way of not knowing. He meant subordinating it to the Singaporean identity. So he said in his lifetime, he had no difficulty forgetting that he was Tamil Ceylon, that he was Sri Lankan, even though he had been born there. He had no difficulty forgetting that he was Malayan, even though most of his family was still there. He had no difficulty forgetting that he fought the communists or communalists. And he forgets because he does this in the service of being Singaporean. So I wonder whether you think today that we are able to do this now. This forgetting of different parts of our identity and sort of holding the nationality superior, and whether that will help in the ethnic and other polarisations that may occur–

SM Lee: It is an ideal. Every time we recite the National Pledge, especially on National Day, you remind yourself that we should work towards that ideal. But realistically, we also know that race and religion are very, very powerful forces and very, very important to people. I will not ask for a show of hands, but if you ask yourself: which element of your identity do you consider the most important − your nationality, your race, your religion, your country of origin or country of birth? Or your language which you speak?

IPS did a survey recently. More than a third put as the most important element of their identity – nationality, Singapore. And the other two thirds put something else. It is the way people are. And therefore, this is always going to be a tension. Because actually, we do not want all of us to forget that we are Chinese or Christians or Buddhists. Neither do we want to forget our mother tongues. We want to keep those parts of our identity. They are important to us. They give us a sense of history. We did not “poof” and come into being in 1965 and not even in 1950 or maybe 1945. We go back to ancient civilisations, ancient faiths, and they are part of us. Therefore, and in that sense, they give us a sense of ballast. I have been here a long time, too. You may be 300 years as a great country, but my civilisation is not younger than you. So I want to keep that. I want to keep the links with the region, because the region is mostly – we have Muslim populations in Malaysia and Indonesia, our neighbours. I want to keep the links with China or Taiwan or Hong Kong, because we speak their language, we are familiar with their culture. I want to keep the links with South Asia, with India, even with Sri Lanka. And yet I do not want to be co-opted by them, and be subsumed by them or follow what is happening there, regardless of what it means to Singapore. And that is very, very challenging.

Moderator: So what it means to Singapore, really, is the glue that holds all of us and defines us as Singaporeans.

SM Lee: So there has to be something which we hold in common together. We have grown up here. Our friends are here. Our family is here. We have made contributions here. We hope to do things here. This place is our home, and this place has its own interests. We are not a Chinese island. You are not an Indian Island. You are not a Malay Island or country. You are a Singaporean country, and it is quite fundamental to us.

Rajaratnam in 1975 when he first went to China, took great pains to explain to his host that Singapore − we are majority Chinese, but please do not misunderstand, we are not a Chinese country. We are a multiracial country which happens to have a Chinese majority, and therefore we want to be your friend but remember that we are a different country. But his Chinese host, they thought it was extremely natural that if your population is 75% Chinese, you should naturally be thinking like us and seeing the world like us and taking positions like us. And they are very puzzled when we look like them, we sound like them, we share culture with them, and yet we do not quite have identical interests.

And this puzzlement, well, I think maybe it has improved a little bit over time, but it really has not disappeared. Because even quite recently, some of them would say to us “同文，同种，同宗，同祖，为什么不同意？” Same language, same culture, same ancestors, why not same view? We are very puzzling. And yet, we do not maintain the same view. Very often we can agree, we work together, but sometimes we have to disagree. And you have to understand, well, we have different national interests. And if you do not understand that, then you cannot be a Singaporean. You cannot have a Singaporean identity.

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