Dialogue with PM Lee Hsien Loong at the Potong Pasir Quiet Visit (Sep 2014)

MP Sitoh Yih Pin: Today we are very honoured to have PM Lee join us here in Potong Pasir. As I recall PM was last here in 2001 General Elections. Without further ado, let me invite PM to say a few words.

PM Lee Hsien Loong: Thank you for the very warm welcome. As Sitoh reminded me it was 2001 General Election when I went to visit the Indian temple just next door. In 2006, Sitoh said he was doing fine, so I gave him moral support and I am very glad that he succeeded and he won. Since 2011, I think a lot of things have happened in Potong Pasir with the projects upgrading work and also involved in community bringing everybody together again. When Sitoh asked me to come for the lantern festival, I had to say yes and am very happy to be here this evening. Two days before 十五, I think everything is ready. I saw some trees all decked up, I thought it was Christmas. It is a few weeks after my National Day Rally. We have been talking about CPF, talking about Aspire, talking about Jurong, making Singapore a more beautiful place to live. There are a lot of things we can discuss and we have some time today and I am open to you. I hope you have been watching me on Ask the PM, the English program or 空中問总李on the Chinese program.

Moderator: The Prime Minister is ready to answer questions. Anybody would like to throw the first question at the Prime Minister. Please identify yourself.

Q: Good afternoon Prime Minister, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen. I am Shao Ming and I have two questions. 

PM Lee: Which group are you with?

Q: I am with the Residents Committee (RC) and Community Centre (CC). In aspiring greater opportunities and career progressions for ITE and Poly graduates, do you think we require the society to have a shift in mindset and if this is so, how long do you think it will take and what can the government do to encourage and educate employers on this?

PM Lee: I think we need a change in mindset. I think it is not the government’s mindset which is the problem because we can change our rules, if our rules need adapting. But it is also how children think how, how parents think, how society values our own people. I think in Singapore everybody knows that education is very important. Those of you who have children or grandchildren, I think if I have a show of hands, those who have tuition, nearly everybody will put your hands up. So I would not embarrass you. I think it is good that we think education is important because in fact we have a good education system and we want children to go and study. But we must also understand that if a person has completed his education in ITE, Poly or university, that does not mean he has finished his education for life because he is 20 years old and he is going to live for another 50, 60 years, 70 years even maybe and he has to keep on learning and upgrading himself and he must feel that desire to keep on moving up. And you do not have to feel that because you do not have a degree or you do not have a Poly diploma, then people will look down on you and then you are already finished and cannot move anymore. That is an attitude which we want parents to have, we want children to have and we want employers also to have.

When you have a young person, I have heard this come back to me because I have done several dialogues since the rally. They say I went to university, now you say ITE and Poly okay, so what about me? The answer is you still have to work hard, we all have to work hard but it does not mean that just because you went to university, means you got a passport, means you can go through all the gates and you can rise and arrive already. Similarly if you went to ITE or Poly and did not go to university, it does not mean that you do not have further opportunities later on. It does not mean that the only way to get opportunities later on is that you must somehow or other get a degree. I know a lot of people who put a lot of effort into getting a degree. If you go to NUS or SIM, these are government universities, not so expensive and the standard is okay. But if you go for private universities, they can be very expensive. If you go overseas, then it may be $40,000, $50,000 a year. Even locally maybe $20,000, $30,000 a year and I know of some people who actually want to sell their flats in order to allow their children to do this. But you should think carefully, is it worth it or not? Because it is very expensive and are you sure you are getting a degree which is valuable in terms of what you learn and also useful in terms of helping you get a job. And it may not be because some of these institutions are good, some of these private institutions, they are in it just to make the money. You must know and find out and you must also be prepared to say I will go the other way. I will work, I will study as I work and I will upgrade myself and I will get my employer to help me. That means the government has to work with the employers and encourage them and among the community too we must know, if we see somebody, if he is doing a good job, he has made a contribution. We do not ask whether he has got a degree, he has got no degree.

As I said, we have PAP MPs, not all of the MPs started off going to university. Several went to Poly, some of them got degrees later on but they started off only with Poly qualifications, Charles Chong, Zainuddin, Liang Eng Hwa. We did not choose them because they went to Poly. We did not choose them because they got degrees later. We chose them because they were good people and they are serving and I think they are good MPs. I think that is the way we should treat people. Certainly if you are serving in the grassroots, we do not ask whether you got a degree or no degree. Are you able to serve or not? That is what is important.

Moderator: Thank you Prime Minister for your answer. Anybody else would like to change the topic from education to something else that would be of interest to the members here?

Q: Good afternoon PM, my name is Or Ning, I am from Potong Pasir CCC. In reference to the mindset change, I have my views on this. Recently there has been some debate on SMRT’s decision to allow Anglo Chinese School Independent (ACS) to ferry their students to a sporting event. Some think it is a really good idea while others condemned it. Do you think LTA was hasty in saying that is not right. Is that a mindset issue?

PM Lee: Do you think it was a good idea or not?

Q: I personally think it was a good idea. 

PM Lee: I agree with you.

Q: I am also from ACS.

PM Lee: I am not from ACS but I think it is a good idea. It is a practical solution. We have trains, we have public transport, we want to move a big crowd of people from point A to point B. If they chartered buses nobody would say anything. So they chartered trains. Why is there a row? I suppose there are two reasons. One because it is ACS. I speak very honestly. If it were Raffles Institution, I think the row will be less but ACS, somehow people think these are ah sia kia which I do not think is true anymore. But anyway, that is the impression, so that was the first unhappiness. I think it is a wrong attitude. The second one is MRT trains so jammed, where got time to go and charter for somebody. But in fact MRT trains are jammed especially during the peak period, early in the morning, 7am to 9.30am, evening 4.30pm to about 7pm. That is when you have the jam, that is when they do not have enough trains, that is when I need to put more services on. But having bought all those trains for the morning and evening the rest of the day the train is sitting there doing nothing. ACS comes along and says I want to charter five of your trains. I say good and it helped me to cover my cost and I think it avoids inconvenience for the other commuters. Supposing all the ACS boys had turned up at Buona Vista MRT station to catch a train, I think that is the nearest one to their school, can you imagine tomorrow, big news, stampede at Buona Vista MRT station, 5000 students came, everybody else inconvenienced, why so unreasonable? So many things to talk about. I think we should decide what is the right thing to do and in this case the right thing to do is, they want to charter, we should let them charter. SMRT should have cleared it with LTA. I think technically they did not quite settle it between them. That we can resolve. I think that is a small matter. Next time they will know how to do the paper work but the main thing is I think we should have the right attitude.

Moderator: Thank Prime Minister, next time Potong Pasir got event, we also can charter.

PM Lee: Yes I think you should.

Q: My name is Tham Hock Chin. I have been serving the CCC-CCMC, residents of Potong Pasir and I have a question. When you go around in the coffee shop et cetera, you can hear a lot of people discussing a lot of rumours. The government keeps on increasing the minimum sum for the CPF. The reason behind it is because the government has no money to pay. The government lost a lot of money in the financial crises and so on, so that is the reason. Would you like to comment on that?

PM Lee: I think it is rubbish.  You do not believe me, you go and ask Roy Ngerng. Roy Ngerng has said government got so much money paying people too little interest. So how can the government no money, therefore, increasing the Minimum Sum. Cannot be, right? Actually the problem is like this. How much money do we need when we retire? It depends on each family. Depends whether your kids looking after you, depends whether what your lifestyle is, whether before that you were rich or you were poor, depends whether you are retiring early or retiring late. So every family some need more, some need less. So the CPF cannot really cater for every family exactly how much you need. All it can do is to provide a basic amount which is enough for which most families will be able to get and is enough to keep you together but really not enough for all of your needs.

And most people will be able to meet the Minimum Sum. Today, already I think if you count the house, maybe about more than half can meet and over time, we think two-thirds maybe three-quarters can meet. If you do not meet the MS does not mean that you starve because you may have a house, you may have other arrangements but we would like to have more people reach MS. How much is in the MS is enough? I think it depends on our standard of living, our lifestyles. Every year, our wages go up little bit. Every year the cost of living goes up, also a little bit. So if the MS does not go up little bit every year, then year by year it becomes less and less meaningful. And then by the time, I think you maybe already collected your MS. So actually it does not affect you. So it only affects those of you who are less than 55 years old in this room today and if you are 20 years old and I do not make the adjustment to the MS. By the time you reach 55 or 65, the MS will be really much, much too small. So I have to adjust.

Furthermore, people are living longer. Today if you are alive at 65 when you stop work, you got 50/50 chance of living for another 20 years. That means till 85. And actually you got one chance in three of living to the 90 years old, which is quite long. So and every year people are living longer because medicine is getting better, out health standards improving. I think active ageing helps, more people going for aerobic, walkabout, qigong and so on. As you live longer, you need more money for your retirement. So how much you need? I do not know whether you watch my practice performance as a financial adviser. But that was a simple calculation. I just do you a simple sum. Supposing you want $1,000 a month as a household and you are 65 years old, you want $1,000. Which is not a lot, I mean many households will have more than that. That means $12,000 a year. Okay? Let us say 65, I plan for 20 years. So $12,000 a year times 20 years, is $240,000. Now the Minimum Sum is only $155,000 today, next year $161,000. Actually the Minimum Sum is not quite enough to give you a $1,000 a year but because you put that aside early, when you are 55 years old, you got ten years and the government is paying, CPF is paying you quite good interest for ten years, so by the time you reach 65, you should have enough, it should last year about 20 years. Basic requirement should be okay. So that is why I think you need the Minimum Sum, I think it is not quite not really enough for all your needs, but as long as we keep on adjusting it, roughly like slowly year by year, I think we would be okay.

And I would say if you are in this room and you are young and working, I will take the bet with you that by the time you reach 55 years old, you will have the Minimum Sum, if you come close. Not everybody will have but I think most people will have. And I think if we do not have the Minimum Sum, then I do not know what will happen because I think your MPS there will be many cases people will come and look for you. Already now, in MPS, we have people come to look for us, old folks no money, no house, do not know how to solve the problem; where do we solve the problem? So I think that is an issue which we should be honest with ourselves. Publicly, it is a very difficult to say because people get offended. How dare you say I do not know how to manage my money. But privately we all know that even with the best intention in the world, sometimes something goes wrong. And then you must be able to look after that.

The lady who told Teo Ser Luck give me my money but not my husband, is not joking. She is a very shrewd lady. Actually what we should do is we should give her the money and do not give her husband. Actually, but how the government do that, right? But you read Berita Harian, I do not know some of you here whether you read Berita Harian but I was just reading a couple of days ago, and they will report on the families where the husband at 55 took out the money, went to Batam, start a new household, and the wife got nothing. And the wife may even have been divorced after that, no maintenance for the wife and gone to Batam, chances are not only Malay family, but also Chinese family.Do not laugh, because every now and again, we have old Chinese person married young Chinese wife and if you read the newspapers last few days, old Chinese woman taken in by young Chinese, old Singaporean woman taken in by young PRC tour guide. So these things can happen. So I think it is quite exciting to listen to people make speeches about CPF but we need to know these things. We have to be grown up about it.

Moderator: Thank you Prime Minister for the assurance that our CPF monies are safe and we all remember that we should not be going to Batam at 55. 

PM Lee: No, no, I did not say that.  

Moderator: I must have been sleeping. Okay, anybody else? Yes?

Q: Prime Minister, MP Sitoh, and fellow grassroots. My name is Tess Lim and I serve in the Residents’ Committee. PM, Singaporeans are actually encouraged to have more children but the cost of bringing them up is in fact increasing. One area of concern is actually preschool education. I have two kids of my own – one in preschool and the older one is in P1 this year. Actually like most parents, we all wish for kids to be well-equipped and to have a good foundation before entering primary school. However, preschool education in Singapore is really rather expensive. At the state subsidized facilities, in fact, have limited spaces given that demand actually outweighs supply. So can the government actually do more to provide more affordable pre-school education and want this actually help to level the playing field of children entering P1?

PM Lee: I think the short answer is yes. We have preschool places but there are not in the right places. I do not know about Potong Pasir specifically but I know places like Punggol or Sengkang where there are a lot of young families. It is quite a problem because if they want some place which near their home and there are not enough places available. So we are trying our best to build to create more spaces, train more preschool teachers, to provide, to build the facilities and you have to be able to build the facilities because quite often the residents say I do not want it downstairs, I want it next door. And everyone wants the next door, so nowhere to go but we are putting up, we are training I think 20,000 more preschool teachers over the next five years. Some big number like that. So I think the places will come but I know your kid is growing up, so cannot wait. But I would say that there are preschool places, they are affordable. PCF the fees are very affordable. I am sure there must be a PCF here. And we have been upgrading the PCF. There are other anchor operators as well. The childcare places are shorter in supply but kindergarten places I think in principle should not be a problem. But I would take this in balance. I do not think that in preschool is you have to pressure cook your child so early and I know some kids in preschool already go for tuition. Yes. And I was told that they even have leadership enhancement courses. I hope your son does not need to go for those, yes?

Q: In fact they do go for some foundation classes. I have to say that it helps to alleviate stress when they enter Primary School.

PM Lee: Raise the stress or lower the stress?

Q: Lower the stress on the kid and myself.

PM Lee: Lower the stress but you put the stress on the kid earlier.

Q: But because they already have some sort of basic foundation when they enter, they do not have to catch up so much. I do see the difference.

PM Lee: Yes, but if you are at home I imagine you are taking care of your kid, you husband also must be spending time with your kids. And they will learn from you informally. I think we should let them have their own childhood and when they go to school, well, they will learn in good time. My mother told me, it is very long ago, but nevertheless, my mother told me that she never learnt to read or write until she went to school and in those days, which must be 1920 something, about nearly 90 plus years ago, that was quite normal. So I mean she grew up at home, a good home, not poor, but when you go to school you learn. Nowadays, when you go to school, we expect you to be able to read and write at least basics. I hear they have some spelling which is very difficult for P1 which I think we should not do. But I think we should keep it within moderation. We should not overdo it. So really what we would like to do in preschool, learn the basics for reading and writing and counting and Arithmetic, but the main thing we want kids to learn in preschool is to make friends with other kids. And discipline how to be in a group, how to take your turn, how to share, do not quarrel. I think that is the important thing. I am not so worried that they later on academically fall behind but I am worried they grow up spoiled and do not know how to behave themselves. That is a big problem in school, later on they grow up as adults even bigger problem for the MP. It is true. So your younger one has a place in preschool?

Q: Yes, but in a private one.

PM Lee: Why did you go to the private preschool?

Q: The education syllabus in the government preschool is different.

PM Lee: So the PCF, we are upgrading the standard and then I think it is improving. The private preschools can be very expensive. I am sure they give you good education but they can be very expensive and I cannot tell people you are not allowed to put your kids into private preschool but I have to be able to provide good subsidized preschool which is affordable for the mass of Singaporeans. And I think we can do that. So I would not ask you where your kid went. But I know that every parent would like to put their kids into better, give their kids a good start in life but we should see in perspective. Okay.

Moderator:  Moral of the story do not be so kiasu. Prime Minister already said university education is not important. Right? So let us relax. Go ITE. When my two children come for the lantern festival later, I will tell them to throw away their books because the Prime Minister say it is okay to go to ITE. So it is okay, relax, let the children grow up. Okay anybody else would like to have a question? The lady in pink.

Q: Good afternoon, Prime Minister, MP Sitoh, ladies and gentlemen. I am Jenny Lim from Viriya Family Services. Prime Minister, I fully agree with you that education is very important. So as a community person, I always want to see how we can help to break the poverty cycle of children from less advantage families and there also must be through better education. I was just wondering whether policies like the Gifted Education Program, the Direct School Admission (DSA) scheme, whether these schemes in fact provide better opportunities for children who are better off than the less well to do families. To be able to get into the gifted education programme or to be able to be admitted under the DSA, they need to go the extra mile and usually this extra mile is provided by commercial operators through enrichment programme, May be just like our friend over there, he sent his children to a private school. How many children from low income families can afford these special programs and enrichment programs? I do not have the statistics, so I do not know if you take a look at the profile of the children under the gifted program and those who have been admitted under the DSA, how many children come from families staying in 3 room or smaller HDB flats? Is that a contributing factor or would that really make a difference?

PM Lee: This is quite a difficult question to answer. I know where you are coming from. That the kid is already from a good family, already doing well in school, you give him this opportunity he will get even further ahead. If you are doing DSA, unless you have gone for some extra education or training in art or dance or music or sports, then you can participate in the DSA. I think there must be some degree to which kids are preparing for that because I know in some schools, this was some years, there was a mother, I spoke to whose daughter was hoping to get into a school. I said, “what is your daughter going to do?”. Her daughter plays a musical instrument, plays a cello. Then I said that is good is not it, plays the cello, got a good chance. She says no, playing the cello, you must get grade 7, then can go in. I think that has really diverted away from the objective of the exercise. I believe that we should give kids a good chance to do well and if they are outstanding, I should help to make him outstanding. I should not hold him back so that somebody else can be not left behind because he goes to GEP or gets special coaching under the DSA program, therefore he or she can become world class. I say let him do that. Whether he is a poor family or rich family, I say let him do that because if he succeeds, it is good for Singapore.

But the kids from the poor families, if I did not have a programme, I think they would have no chance to get into such a scheme at all because it is much less likely that the parents will put them for tuition, will give them the enrichment and will be able to let them develop and flower. I went to a school once in Ang Mo Kio, a good school but it is not one of these brand name schools. I was just walking around,and they had a staircase and in the staircase they put a piano in the corner of the staircase. We were just walking by and a little girl came along, one of the students, just ignored us, went there sat down and played the piano by herself. She played quite well. I was so tempted to stop and take a picture but I was a bit shy so I did not do that which I ever since regret because I think you can tell the story that here we have created these opportunities and ordinary kids, you go to school, you do this. Where else, you go to school in Johor Baru, you got a chance to do that? Zero. In Singapore, we create chances. When you have a kid who is from a broken home and the family is really in trouble, I think the problem is not so much the school and the enrichment in school. The real problem is we have to be able to help the kid to improve the home environment so that then the kid got a chance to go and study. Otherwise you go home every day, the parents are quarrelling or there is no light at home or no water, then they have to go downstairs, void deck to study. Where have they got the chance to be equal? It is very difficult but actually the difficulty is in the home. I know teachers who have told me the kid does not come to school, you go and look for the parents. Parents say so difficult, no money for school, bus fare. You arrange for school bus subsidy, then he doesn’t come, then you have got to look for the kid at home, you got to look for him because the parent is not engaged, no clue. Then you have got to try and persuade the parent to pay attention and make the kid come to school.

What is missing is not what is in school. What is missing is what is at home and that is very, very difficult for us to overcome because we would like to help but we are not in a position to put ourselves in place of the parents and take charge of the child. Cannot right, unless I say parent is incompetent, get a court order, take the child away, put him with foster parents whojaga him, makes him study at night. Maybe I can do that for a few in a very extreme case but in many cases it is not quite so bad and yet you know it is not very good. I think that is a problem we have. I do not know whether you have got it here but I know in some constituencies, we do family service centres. We have got arrangements like in Maliki’s side which is in Siglap, he has got his CC and family service centre just next to the interim rental housing. Interim rental, you can imagine, a lot of problems. He arranges tuition class, this is not tuition for enrichment but just tuition class so that at night the children will have a place to go and study and somebody to talk to and every night the kids come down and they study in the CC. They have got a room they provide and there are some volunteer teachers who go around and mentor them, make sure they spend the two hours productively. I think that sort of thing helps a great deal. Does not solve the problem completely but it can make a difference. I think that is the sort of thing we should do within the community to try and help break the cycle. But I am sure in Viriya, you will see a lot of these cases.

Q: Yes, we have a lot of these cases. When the children are not in school, the teachers call our centres because usually you cannot get the parents. They are single parent or they can be from broken families. So the teachers will then call our centre, and ask if the children are at the centre. So okay if they are at your centre, then it is safe.

PM Lee: I think we need the centres but actually we would like to try and avoid so many broken families, if we can. So we really need to counsel the young people, especially if you are going to get married very, very young. Better think carefully, you may think you are in love, you may be already even pregnant but better consider carefully because you get married, you may make problem worse rather than better.

Q: I am David Hwang from CCC. Another issue close to heart is housing for a lot of Singaporeans. I think I received some feedback that private property owners cannot purchase HDB properties but one the other hand some HDB owners, they bought private properties and moved out and stay in private properties but yet they lease out HDB properties for rental income. We just like to understand the spirit of that right now.

PM Lee: I assume that you are not HDB owner moved out and renting for income. You are living in private property. This has become hot because in the last few years housing has become such a hot issue. Previously we did this but it wasn’t such a hot issue. I suppose our starting point is like this, we want to help Singaporeans who cannot quite help themselves. If they can buy a private property that is good, we wish you success. If they are not able to buy a private property, then we help you to buy an HDB flat. We sell you an HDB flat but we sell it to you when you are 20, 30 years old. When you are 40, 50 years old you may have done well in your careers and at that point if you need to move out for one reason or other, then you can rent out your flat, not straight away but after five or 10 years, I am prepared to allow that because I do not want to hold you back, you have already succeeded. Not so many people do that. Some do and I think it is from the overall point of view, I am quite happy that flats are available to be rented out but I think those who went for private property and want to move into HDB feel a bit unfair. But I think what we have allowed the private property owners to do is first if you sell your private property, you can go into the resale market, you can buy an HDB flat and there’s no debarment. If you want to buy an HDB flat, you sell your property after two and a half years. You can buy an HDB flat so you can do that. Is it completely fair? You can argue one way or the other. I think if the market were very hot, I probably would not allow this to happen but from a long term perspective, I think those of you who started off HDB and later on you say I want to move out after a long time, I would be prepared to consider. Is there anybody here who is in that situation who can make an argument, would like to join the discussion? Maybe not.

Q: My name is Tony Seng, I am serving in the CCC and C2E. My point is on rental. Rent is increasing is everywhere. In order to control the escalation of this rent, we should not allow investors in HDB shops.

PM Lee: Meaning you want HDB shops to be owner-occupied.

Q: Yes buyer and signee of HDB shop should be operator and not investor who uses it and rent it out for investment. This will create a high rental environment and also HDB and JTC perhaps could help those entrepreneurs who are starting up?

PM Lee: I think there are different views on this one. If you go to the coffee shops in Singapore, you will find they do very, very good business, some of them and I think some of those who do the best business are actually owned by some big boss. One boss runs six, seven coffee shops, all of them prospering and the residents benefit from the good coffee shop. If I say you cannot run six or seven and each one must be owned by somebody differently, I am not sure I would get as good a boss doing the same business because I have also seen coffee shops which are half dead, no business. I think that when it comes to HDB shops, we really should move to letting people do the business who know how to do business. In fact even markets sometimes have that problem. When you got the wet markets, where we often do not allow people to have more than one stall because the old ones are subsidised, you find the stalls are half dead. But where we have freed up and people can take two adjacent stalls merged together, run a bigger operation, then you find the person who is really a good businessman comes together, then he gives you either very good vegetable and fruit stall, or if it’s a good food shop, well very good zi char or bak kut teh or something, then I think the residents get better business. I think that is a better way to do things. We should help entrepreneurs to begin, people who want to start up. We have arrangements for that.

I think Spring has a lot of programs. We have got what is called Block 71, I do not know whether you have heard of that or not, but it is a block in Henderson somewhere or near the university where if you are a start up, you can go there and all of the facilities are provided and you do not have to provide your manpower, your office and so on. You just go in and you start. I think it is quite successful. They have gone into two blocks. We should do more but I think the young people do not want to start up and go and do zi char anymore. No, because I see all of these very successful zi char, long queue, I said, “what is your children doing?” “Our children gone and they got their own business already.” So they do not want to do that anymore and I can understand that. So we want to keep the old way, you want to have the wet market, you want to have a coffeeshop but I am not sure whether 10 years or 20 years from now, we can keep on doing that because who is going to run these place. Even today, the coffeeshop and the stalls if you go especially at night, you find the operators actually they are PRC operators. PRC workers now. Because the Singaporeans are not going to be there at 12 o’clock to do the zi char for you. So I hope we do not end up like the Western society where after midnight only can get this MacDonald’s or Kentucky Fried Chicken but I think that our lifestyles will change and the markets and the shops will also change, which is I think we have to accept that.

Moderator: Thank you, Prime Minister. How about somebody from this block?

Q: Good afternoon, Prime Minister, Mr Sitoh and everybody here including those standing and sitting. My name is Allan Koon, I am the C2 Chairman for Potong Pasir. Actually I do not have a question for you but rather I have an observation for you. You started off as Prime Minister, you were seems to be a very serious person and actually a bit aloof compared to then Prime Minister Goh and I think people find it very hard to like you. But, but for the last few years, actually last three years, personally you have changed a lot and you actually let your hair down. Also you have become more approachable and actually more likeable. And also personally, I felt that people tend to be close to you, you actually touch base with people. And smile, like we last observed during the last rally you actually have 33 smiles and three laughters in a total of all your three different language speeches. But as I said most important is that you have changed and I think all Singaporeans, including myself, like this way of you and please do keep it up. Actually I am hoping to grab a time to have a selfie with you. Thank you.

PM Lee: Well, thank you very much for your very kind words. I do not know whether I have changed. I know I have grown older but you cannot help that. Maybe older, a bit more patient and a bit more gentle. But actually this is a tough job and sometimes in this job, you have to tell people things which they may not want to hear and you have to be prepared to do that but you have to do it in way which shows that you actually understand the other person’s point of view and why there is a problem. But it cannot be just be based on me alone. It is actually the team and you must be able to work with the whole team and have confidence in my team and the Ministers as well. Because we work as a team and when you go for an election, each person in the team has to have its own standing and its own support and it is very difficult for the Ministers to do that other than it is for me. If you are the PM, you are the lightning rod, either people like you or they do not like you and if they like you, something goes wrong, they can unlike you very quickly. No, it is like that. On Facebook, you press one button, you unlike already. You look at other countries, you can be very popular but something goes wrong with the economy, you have a major disaster, you do not handle it well, straightaway attitudes can change. So I think the most important thing is try to do the right thing and people like you, then you can smile a bit. And afterwards, we can even do selfies.

Moderator: Thank you, Prime Minister. There is time for two more questions. I would like to ask one. Now, Prime Minister, I think a lot of people are thinking about the next Prime Minister – the next leadership. I think a lot of people also like to ask this question. Is the next Prime Minister somebody we are familiar with currently or is he still out there waiting to be discovered?

PM Lee: It depends on the General Elections, right? I mean if you can tell me what is the outcome of the next General Election is, I can have greater confidence what the next team will be but I think we have worked hard to bring into the team good younger people. 50 years old, 40 plus years old. When I brought them in, they were 42, 43, now already Chan Chun Sing already 46 or 47. So the years have passed. I think we will bring in some more people in the next election, a couple more. Each team will have to work in its own different way and if the system works well, and if the politics in Singapore works well, then from amongst the people we identify, I hope that a leader will emerge. I cannot tell you who because it depends on how it works out amongst them. I can tell you that it will be different from the way I have tried to work, from the way Mr Goh was able to work before me, or Mr Lee even more so at the beginning. Because it is a different age, it is a different population. So if I try to be like Goh Chok Tong or Lee Kuan Yew, I will be in serious trouble. I think if somebody else tries to be like me, it probably would not work either. But I think that we have got in our team about the strongest group we can find in Singapore to make this place worth and we have to support them. If you take the Workers’ Party point of view, Workers’ Party says look at them, not sure whether can succeed or not, vote for me, I will be the co-driver. I think that is a surest way to fail because you can be sure the Workers’ Party is not capable of doing this and you just weaken the group. But if we work with them, then over time they will grow and you may think you do not know them now, but after five years, the years, people grow into the job and then you will get confident with them, then you say, “oh you have changed” and maybe they have changed but maybe actually you just got to know them. That trust has been built up and I think that is what we need to do over the next few years, quite urgently.

Moderator: Thank you, Prime Minister. We only have time for one last question. Maybe somebody from that block, that man behind?

Q: 总李你好。司徒先生，还有各位集成领袖们，你好。小姓邓，是本俱乐部的经理。

PM Lee: 也是我们的老同学。

Q：我在这里服务了十八年，我现在已旁观则的身份来叙述，给您知道Potong Pasir 这十八年来的变化。我们知道Potong Pasir 是全国最小的选区，我们在反对党的掌控下，度过了二十七年，似乎是一个不可攻破的反对党堡垒，可是2011年，我们了解到，这里的居民是不会利益左右，组屋的翻新，电梯的翻新，他们认为是理所当然的，政府应该做的，那我们用什么政策老攻破反对党的报领，这靠一个人，一个附有斗志和意义里，他十年，不离不弃的在Potong Pasir服务了居民，失败两次，可是他在2011年大选前夕，他在桃园，可能你不明白什么是桃园，应为我们在桃园聚餐， 一个餐馆。司徒先生讲了一句话：选民可以抛弃我，但我决不抱起选民。这句话不知感动了我，也感动了在座的108条基层领袖。他这句话，居民绝对尊定了他们要攻取这座堡垒，可是要这么攻呢？我所说的他们，先解释一下，他们是代表司徒先生，跟基层组织们。他们用了兵家所说的一句话-得民心者，得天下。 这是战烈上最重要的。他们用真诚的心，刺热的心，关怀的心去帮忙，去照顾居民们，这样一来，他们以得了明新，他们攻下了这个堡垒。总李先生，在这四年来，他们实现了大选前的晨诺，把我们Potong Pasir 这个小选区照成一个麻雀虽小，五脏俱全的温暖的家园，可是我本身深信，我本身观察司徒先生和他的基层们还是保住他们的心愿就是保服居民，他们会永远永远的保持这次得来不宜的保垒，这我可以坦言。在此同时，我也想象各位讲一下，新加坡我们这个国家，是小小的。连世界地图有时都找不到，一个弹丸小国。可是我们的国家已经发达到世界级的发达国家。我可以激昂我们的名声不输余美国中国。这种成就是我们廉洁的政府，英明的政府苦干拼出来的。总李先生，他不惜劳苦，为居民，为了民服务。我知道的，他牺牲小我来完成大我。这精神是很伟大的。现在我想在座各位，我们向总李，司徒先生还有一位，我不可以缺得的-那是一位凡事亲历亲为，每天风雨不改的，都在Potong Pasir 出现的CCC 主席Ah Chua。 各位，请我们以热烈的掌声像我们这三位舍己为民的领袖，给他们一个热烈的掌声表示我们的敬意和谢谢。谢谢大家！

PM Lee: 谢谢范博同学。我知道你在这里服务多年。我知道Potong Pasir以一个在野的选区，辛苦了二十几年，但是我们有信心有一天会把它赢回来。所以Sitoh在这里拼了三次，最终成功了。他能够成功不只是他的努力。我知道基层也牺牲了不少，也同样地面对很大的压力。我相信居民对你们肯定有意见，肯定会问“你为什么要跟行动党穿白的，为什么你不跟着我们来”。但是你们坚持下去，有理想、有信心，最后成功了。但是其实这只是个开始。因为你现在已经成功了，我们现在就必须为人民做我们一向来都觉得应该做的事。三年半做了不少，五年后我想我们可以交出及格的成绩单。可是还需要升级的。所以下一次大选我不知道选区划分情况如何，但是无论如何我相信Potong Pasir 不可能不战而胜—肯定有竞争，肯定有竞选，可能是同一个反对党，可能是Mrs Chiam，可能是别人。但是无论如何你必须有恃无恐，能够维持下去，能够争取到更好的多数票。如果下一次再以一百多票险胜，那我看太紧张了，一次就够了。但是我看下一次情况已经不相同，Sitoh五年后，人家认识他，不可以开玩笑，要攻也没那么简单了。所以革命尚未成功，同志仍须努力。

Moderator: Thank you, Prime Minister. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. I know you have more questions to ask but unfortunately, we have come to the end of the session. Now Mr Prime Minister, Sir, and host adviser Mr Sitoh, thank you very much for the session. May I now invite you on a tour of our Potong Pasir CC.

Mr Sitoh: Okay, I just want to say thank you to PM for spending your time with our grassroots. At the same time, I also want to thank all our grassroots leaders and our stakeholders because I know you have worked very, very hard to prepare for the event today. Thank you.

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